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diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-December/000075.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-December/000075.html
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+ <H1>[Nel] Server on GNU/Linux</H1>

+ Valignat Cedric

+ <A HREF="mailto:valignat%40nevrax.com"

+ TITLE="[Nel] Server on GNU/Linux">valignat@nevrax.com</A>

+ Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:09:23 +0100

+ <UL>

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+

+<PRE>Hello everybody,

+At least it comes, you should be able to get something to compile and running

+under GNU/Linux platforms ...

+Checkout the INSTALL file, it will show you the path to follow :-)

+Cedric.

+</pre>

+

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+ <H1>[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</H1>

+ Jean-Noel Moyne

+ <A HREF="mailto:jnmoyne%40tibco.com"

+ TITLE="[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture">jnmoyne@tibco.com</A>

+ Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:53:09 +0100

+ <UL>

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+

+<PRE>Just had a look at your site and your project because my brother is

+going to work with you guys (as a graphic artist). I see that you have

+need for fast reliable real-time asynchronous (and probably one to many)

+network transport for your messaging. That need being for server to

+server communication, not server to client.

+You should have a look at PGM, which is an open reliable multicast

+protocol designed by Cisco and TIBCO (the company I work for), which is

+design to solve just this kind of problems in the most efficient way.

+While TIBCO makes a complete messaging system that will use PGM and that

+is a commercial product, we are also releasing an Open Source version of

+the PGM protocol stack (which is probably all you need, and all you

+would want to use, being an Open Source project yourself).

+As a suggestion from a network professional with a lot of experience

+designing large scale scalable real time oriented distributed systems,

+you should take a look at it.

+<A HREF="http://pgm.tibco.com/">http://pgm.tibco.com/</A>

+ JNM

+</pre>

+

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+ <H1>[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</H1>

+ Dim Segebart

+ <A HREF="mailto:zager%40teleaction.com"

+ TITLE="[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture">zager@teleaction.com</A>

+ Fri, 08 Dec 2000 11:39:18 +0100

+ <UL>

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+

+<PRE>Hello !

+Just one question.

+>From <A HREF="http://pgm.tibco.com/draft-speakman-pgm-spec-04.txt">http://pgm.tibco.com/draft-speakman-pgm-spec-04.txt</A>

+>>> PGM runs over a datagram multicast protocol such as IP multicast [5].

+

+AFAIK, many ISP's ban multicast traffic and many users'll be unable to use

+software based on it.

+Am I wrong or missing something ?

+TIA

+--

+Dim

+Jean-Noel Moyne wrote:

+> Just had a look at your site and your project because my brother is

+> going to work with you guys (as a graphic artist). I see that you have

+> need for fast reliable real-time asynchronous (and probably one to many)

+> network transport for your messaging. That need being for server to

+> server communication, not server to client.

+>

+> You should have a look at PGM, which is an open reliable multicast

+> protocol designed by Cisco and TIBCO (the company I work for), which is

+> design to solve just this kind of problems in the most efficient way.

+>

+> While TIBCO makes a complete messaging system that will use PGM and that

+> is a commercial product, we are also releasing an Open Source version of

+> the PGM protocol stack (which is probably all you need, and all you

+> would want to use, being an Open Source project yourself).

+>

+> As a suggestion from a network professional with a lot of experience

+> designing large scale scalable real time oriented distributed systems,

+> you should take a look at it.

+>

+> <A HREF="http://pgm.tibco.com/">http://pgm.tibco.com/</A>

+>

+> JNM

+> _______________________________________________

+> Nel mailing list

+> <A HREF="mailto:Nel@nevrax.org">Nel@nevrax.org</A>

+> <A HREF="http://www.nevrax.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/nel">http://www.nevrax.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/nel</A>

+

+</pre>

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+ <H1>[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</H1>

+ Vincent Archer

+ <A HREF="mailto:archer%40nevrax.com"

+ TITLE="[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture">archer@nevrax.com</A>

+ Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:08:20 +0100

+ <UL>

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+

+<PRE>According to Jean-Noel Moyne:

+> You should have a look at PGM, which is an open reliable multicast

+> protocol designed by Cisco and TIBCO (the company I work for), which is

+> design to solve just this kind of problems in the most efficient way.

+

+Hmmm, about everyone around started talking about, then dismissing it

+as unsuited to our needs, but that's chiefly due to one misunderstanding.

+At first we didn't see the "server to server" sentence.

+We still don't know how well multicasting can be useful in our server

+architecture, because so far, we have very few one-to-many messages

+across servers. Most services discuss with a specific target on a specific

+service.

+However, we still have lots of discussion for the "world service",

+i.e. the service which "simulates" the world and run the various objects

+and NPC agents. That one might be a candidate for a multicast protocol,

+since we can expect replication of objects across multiple world services.

+This tie in with another question which I didn't had time to reply to,

+regarding how to "split" the world across the multiple world services.

+If the split is done by geography (the UO model), then there is little

+need of a PGM-based protocol, because most objects will be accessed by

+2 world services (edges), or at most 3 (T-intersections). However, if the

+split is done instead by reference (i.e. we cluster an agent with the

+agents that refer to it more often), then we have a higher redundancy

+of agents on servers, and a multicast is probably the best method to

+send message to these agents.

+--

+Vincent Archer Email: <A HREF="mailto:archer@nevrax.com">archer@nevrax.com</A>

+Nevrax France. Off on the yellow brick road we go!

+</pre>

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+ <H1>[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</H1>

+ Vincent Archer

+ <A HREF="mailto:archer%40nevrax.com"

+ TITLE="[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture">archer@nevrax.com</A>

+ Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:11:10 +0100

+ <UL>

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+

+<PRE>According to Dim Segebart:

+> Hello !

+> Just one question.

+>

+> >From <A HREF="http://pgm.tibco.com/draft-speakman-pgm-spec-04.txt">http://pgm.tibco.com/draft-speakman-pgm-spec-04.txt</A>

+> >>> PGM runs over a datagram multicast protocol such as IP multicast [5].

+>

+> AFAIK, many ISP's ban multicast traffic and many users'll be unable to use

+> software based on it.

+> Am I wrong or missing something ?

+> TIA

+

+And Jean-Noel Moyne said:

+> network transport for your messaging. That need being for server to

+> server communication, not server to client.

+

+Note "server to server". What Jean-Noel was suggesting was not a protocol

+to communicate with the clients, but a protocol to communicate between

+the various servers that constitute a world cluster.

+Since these clusters will be located in a single facility, on a dedicated

+switch, the issue of IP filtering do not apply :)

+--

+Vincent Archer Email: <A HREF="mailto:archer@nevrax.com">archer@nevrax.com</A>

+Nevrax France. Off on the yellow brick road we go!

+</pre>

+

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+ <H1>[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</H1>

+ MIGUEL ANGEL BLANCH LARDIN

+ <A HREF="mailto:x5101920%40fedro.ugr.es"

+ TITLE="[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture">x5101920@fedro.ugr.es</A>

+ Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:13:59 +0100 (MET)

+ <UL>

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+

+<PRE>> At first we didn't see the "server to server" sentence.

+

+Ok, I have a dummy question, but when it is better to have multicast

+to a server delivering the messages to the rest of servers?

+How portable/compatible is mulitcast technology?

+</pre>

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+ <H1>[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</H1>

+ Vincent Archer

+ <A HREF="mailto:archer%40nevrax.com"

+ TITLE="[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture">archer@nevrax.com</A>

+ Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:37:00 +0100

+ <UL>

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+

+<PRE>According to MIGUEL ANGEL BLANCH LARDIN:

+> > At first we didn't see the "server to server" sentence.

+>

+> Ok, I have a dummy question, but when it is better to have multicast

+> to a server delivering the messages to the rest of servers?

+

+Quite simple: When you need to send the same message to more than one

+server. As soon as you need to send a message to multiple servers,

+you will tie up bandwidth and CPU resending the same message over and over

+to each server.

+Consider the following model. Each agent (which represent an object, NPC,

+PC, the door, the lamp, whatever entity in your world) is represented

+typically by an object in a "world service process". Once your world

+becomes large, you need multiple processes. What happens when an agent

+want to "talk" to another agent on a different process. The agent, in an

+ideal (and OO) world, merely talks to an object located in its process

+space, said object being either the recipient agent itself, or merely a

+replica, which will forward the message across the network to the real

+agent.

+You don't need multicast for that: its straight 1-to-1.

+However, what if the message is "what is your current XYZ". That's a fairly

+frequent question. If you need to query across the network, you'll quickly

+end up loading the net, just to find the value three variables.

+That's where PGM/multicast intervenes. In that model, the agent, when he

+changes some of his variables, notifies the replica that "XYZ are now...".

+I spoke about how the world services organise where an agent resides. In

+some models, you have about one, maybe two replicas, which you can notify

+using a standard TCP stream. Or RDP. But, if you want a load-balancing

+system, you quickly end up with a replica of an object in most world

+service processes. It becomes then more efficient to multicast the updates

+as above to all processes, and update them all in one sweep.

+> How portable/compatible is mulitcast technology?

+

+Multicast is working, right now. However, to work across separate networks,

+it requires specific support from IP routers, and resources, which most

+providers aren't willing to dedicate (multi-network multicast is mostly

+used for video/audio "broadcasts", video conferencing or shows).

+As for PGM, well, the current library has lots of empty directories and

+"TODO" notes in comments, so it's clearly a work in progress :)

+--

+Vincent Archer Email: <A HREF="mailto:archer@nevrax.com">archer@nevrax.com</A>

+Nevrax France. Off on the yellow brick road we go!

+</pre>

+

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+ MIGUEL ANGEL BLANCH LARDIN

+ <A HREF="mailto:x5101920%40fedro.ugr.es"

+ TITLE="[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture">x5101920@fedro.ugr.es</A>

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+

+<PRE>> That's where PGM/multicast intervenes. In that model, the agent,

+when he

+> changes some of his variables, notifies the replica that "XYZ are

+now...".

+> I spoke about how the world services organise where an agent

+resides. In

+> some models, you have about one, maybe two replicas, which you can

+notify

+> using a standard TCP stream. Or RDP. But, if you want a

+load-balancing

+> system, you quickly end up with a replica of an object in most world

+> service processes. It becomes then more efficient to multicast the

+updates

+> as above to all processes, and update them all in one sweep.

+

+Ok, I always have though of load balancing as load-work division

+between servers.

+I think that the above kind of working can have several inconsistences

+, just take a look to some distributed Mutual exclusion algos.

+Just imagine that both copies of a object multicast different

+positions, you have to choose what is the best one, and whatever your

+choose is, it will be wrong, and servers can't be wrong.

+Replycating work can be a real pain.

+And for what you have said multicast isn't a solution for end-users.

+I think that IPv6 will fix these things, by having a multicast in the

+standart, isn't it?

+</pre>

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+ <H1>[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</H1>

+ Vincent Archer

+ <A HREF="mailto:archer%40nevrax.com"

+ TITLE="[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture">archer@nevrax.com</A>

+ Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:11:26 +0100

+ <UL>

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+

+<PRE>According to MIGUEL ANGEL BLANCH LARDIN:

+> Just imagine that both copies of a object multicast different

+> positions, you have to choose what is the best one, and whatever your

+> choose is, it will be wrong, and servers can't be wrong.

+

+Ahem, no. I might have used object and agent in various contexts, but

+an agent is the only one which is authorised to change its state. The

+other objects are "replica", or passive objects. Each agent may exist

+only as a single copy over the set of processes, and he is the entity

+responsible for updating the local states of the replica objects in

+the other processes.

+If you want "what is your XYZ", the local replica answers. However, if

+you want "teleport to XYZ", the message is transmitted across the network

+to the unique agent, which updates its internal state, and then retransmits

+to all replicas "set internal state XYZ". And the latter is when multicast

+helps when there are many replicas to update.

+> Replycating work can be a real pain.

+

+Hey, if I could buy a terahertz processor and have everything run on a

+single process, I'd be happy too :)

+--

+Vincent Archer Email: <A HREF="mailto:archer@nevrax.com">archer@nevrax.com</A>

+Nevrax France. Off on the yellow brick road we go!

+</pre>

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+ <H1>[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</H1>

+ MIGUEL ANGEL BLANCH LARDIN

+ <A HREF="mailto:x5101920%40fedro.ugr.es"

+ TITLE="[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture">x5101920@fedro.ugr.es</A>

+ Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:20:32 +0100 (MET)

+ <UL>

+ <LI> Previous message: <A HREF="000083.html">[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</A></li>

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+

+<PRE>> Ahem, no. I might have used object and agent in various contexts,

+but

+> an agent is the only one which is authorised to change its state.

+The

+> other objects are "replica", or passive objects. Each agent may

+exist

+> only as a single copy over the set of processes, and he is the

+entity

+> responsible for updating the local states of the replica objects in

+> the other processes.

+>

+> If you want "what is your XYZ", the local replica answers. However,

+if

+> you want "teleport to XYZ", the message is transmitted across the

+network

+> to the unique agent, which updates its internal state, and then

+retransmits

+> to all replicas "set internal state XYZ". And the latter is when

+multicast

+> helps when there are many replicas to update.

+

+Ok, as far as I am thinking about agents, a replica only show info but

+can't process code. So all the modificators should be send to the

+main agent, that then update.

+There is still the possibility of an object to get two contradictory

+updates at the same time. To avoid this you should order the messages,

+something that I feel is unefficient and ugly.

+Just image agent is a ball, and then two user decide to kick the two

+replica of the agent, so the replicas get the kick commnand and send

+it to the agent.

+> > Replycating work can be a real pain.

+>

+> Hey, if I could buy a terahertz processor and have everything run on

+a

+> single process, I'd be happy too :)

+

+If you need a terahertz processor to run the server, you better start

+again the design stage.

+Just I want to note that replycanting the work can lead to ugly

+things and race conditions.

+</pre>

+

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+ <H1>[Nel] Bugs on nevrax.org</H1>

+ David Mentre

+ <A HREF="mailto:David.Mentre%40inria.fr"

+ TITLE="[Nel] Bugs on nevrax.org">David.Mentre@inria.fr</A>

+ 22 Dec 2000 10:06:41 +0100

+ <UL>

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+

+<PRE>Hi all nelers,

+There are two bugs at nevrax.org:

+ 1. the <A HREF="mailto:webmaster@nevrax.org">webmaster@nevrax.org</A> address is invalid:

+... while talking to www.nevrax.org.:

+>>> RCPT To:<<A HREF="mailto:webmaster@nevrax.org">webmaster@nevrax.org</A>>

+<<< 550 5.1.1 <<A HREF="mailto:webmaster@nevrax.org">webmaster@nevrax.org</A>>... User unknown

+550 5.1.1 <<A HREF="mailto:webmaster@nevrax.org">webmaster@nevrax.org</A>>... User unknown

+ 2. the bug system is no longer working at the time of this email:

+<A HREF="http://www.nevrax.org/bugs/reports.cgi">http://www.nevrax.org/bugs/reports.cgi</A>

+Software error:

+Can't connect to database server. at globals.pl line 40.

+For help, please send mail to the webmaster (<A HREF="mailto:webmaster@nevrax.org">webmaster@nevrax.org</A>),

+giving this error message and the time and date of the error.

+Hope it helps,

+Best regards,

+d.

+--

+ <A HREF="mailto:David.Mentre@inria.fr">David.Mentre@inria.fr</A> -- <A HREF="http://www.irisa.fr/prive/dmentre/">http://www.irisa.fr/prive/dmentre/</A>

+ Opinions expressed here are only mine.

+</pre>

+

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diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-December/000086.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-December/000086.html
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+ <H1>[Nel] Bugs on nevrax.org</H1>

+ Vincent Archer

+ <A HREF="mailto:archer%40nevrax.com"

+ TITLE="[Nel] Bugs on nevrax.org">archer@nevrax.com</A>

+ Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:22:08 +0100

+ <UL>

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+

+<PRE>According to David Mentre:

+> There are two bugs at nevrax.org:

+>

+> 1. the <A HREF="mailto:webmaster@nevrax.org">webmaster@nevrax.org</A> address is invalid:

+>

+> ... while talking to www.nevrax.org.:

+> >>> RCPT To:<<A HREF="mailto:webmaster@nevrax.org">webmaster@nevrax.org</A>>

+> <<< 550 5.1.1 <<A HREF="mailto:webmaster@nevrax.org">webmaster@nevrax.org</A>>... User unknown

+> 550 5.1.1 <<A HREF="mailto:webmaster@nevrax.org">webmaster@nevrax.org</A>>... User unknown

+

+Hrrrmmm? There's a comment in front of the alias (can't figure out why.

+My name's there, but it got commented out).

+> 2. the bug system is no longer working at the time of this email:

+>

+> <A HREF="http://www.nevrax.org/bugs/reports.cgi">http://www.nevrax.org/bugs/reports.cgi</A>

+> Software error:

+>

+> Can't connect to database server. at globals.pl line 40.

+

+No error messages, and the sql server went down. I'll keep an eye on it

+for today.

+Please note that the Nevrax offices are closed during the Christmas-New Year

+period. This list and the site shouldn't suffer, but don't expect prompt

+response to any problem or question you may raise.

+Happy holiday season all, and see you next century!

+--

+Vincent Archer Email: <A HREF="mailto:archer@nevrax.com">archer@nevrax.com</A>

+Nevrax France. Off on the yellow brick road we go!

+</pre>

+

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+ <h1>2000-December Archives by Author</h1>

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+ Starting: Mon Dec 4 15:09:23 2000

+ Ending: Fri Dec 22 09:22:08 2000

+ Messages: 12

+ <ul>

+<LI> <A HREF="000078.html">[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</A> <A NAME="78"></A>Vincent Archer

+<LI> <A HREF="000079.html">[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</A> <A NAME="79"></A>Vincent Archer

+<LI> <A HREF="000081.html">[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</A> <A NAME="81"></A>Vincent Archer

+<LI> <A HREF="000083.html">[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</A> <A NAME="83"></A>Vincent Archer

+<LI> <A HREF="000086.html">[Nel] Bugs on nevrax.org</A> <A NAME="86"></A>Vincent Archer

+<LI> <A HREF="000075.html">[Nel] Server on GNU/Linux</A> <A NAME="75"></A>Valignat Cedric

+<LI> <A HREF="000080.html">[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</A> <A NAME="80"></A>MIGUEL ANGEL BLANCH LARDIN

+<LI> <A HREF="000082.html">[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</A> <A NAME="82"></A>MIGUEL ANGEL BLANCH LARDIN

+<LI> <A HREF="000084.html">[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</A> <A NAME="84"></A>MIGUEL ANGEL BLANCH LARDIN

+<LI> <A HREF="000085.html">[Nel] Bugs on nevrax.org</A> <A NAME="85"></A>David Mentre

+<LI> <A HREF="000076.html">[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</A> <A NAME="76"></A>Jean-Noel Moyne

+<LI> <A HREF="000077.html">[Nel] Suggestion for the NeL network library / architecture</A> <A NAME="77"></A>Dim Segebart

+ </ul>

+

+ <a name="end">Last message date:</a>

+ Fri Dec 22 09:22:08 2000

+ Archived on: Fri Dec 22 10:19:00 2000

+

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