From 0ea5fc66924303d1bf73ba283a383e2aadee02f2 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: neodarz Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 20:21:34 +0200 Subject: Initial commit --- pipermail/nel/2000-November/000002.html | 57 ++++ pipermail/nel/2000-November/000003.html | 65 +++++ pipermail/nel/2000-November/000004.html | 96 ++++++ pipermail/nel/2000-November/000005.html | 67 +++++ pipermail/nel/2000-November/000006.html | 59 ++++ pipermail/nel/2000-November/000007.html | 156 ++++++++++ pipermail/nel/2000-November/000008.html | 61 ++++ pipermail/nel/2000-November/000009.html | 62 ++++ pipermail/nel/2000-November/000010.html | 70 +++++ pipermail/nel/2000-November/000011.html | 80 +++++ pipermail/nel/2000-November/000012.html | 52 ++++ pipermail/nel/2000-November/000013.html | 93 ++++++ pipermail/nel/2000-November/000014.html | 91 ++++++ pipermail/nel/2000-November/000015.html | 105 +++++++ pipermail/nel/2000-November/000016.html | 72 +++++ pipermail/nel/2000-November/000017.html | 81 ++++++ 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a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000002.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000002.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..bb4c5935 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000002.html @@ -0,0 +1,57 @@ + + + + [Nel] What kind of game are you making? + + + + + + +

[Nel] What kind of game are you making?

+ david.belius@chello.se + david.belius@chello.se
+ Wed, 08 Nov 2000 20:19:05 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hello.
+I found your project on freshmeat and it looks very cool.
+You say that you are commercially funded and that the game data does not
+have to be free even though the code is free.
+I assume this means you are making a game out of this.
+What kind of game are you making?
+How long have you been working on NeL?
+
+Best Regards,
+David
+
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000003.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000003.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..89023153 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000003.html @@ -0,0 +1,65 @@ + + + + [Nel] problem about the bug report interface + + + + + + +

[Nel] problem about the bug report interface

+ Nicolas Hognon + nhognon@noos.fr
+ Wed, 08 Nov 2000 20:42:07 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hy ....
+
+yesterday i've submited a little bug in the bug report
+but i encounter a problem to report it.
+
+on the report bug page we must select the component associated
+to the bug but under netscape communicator 4.76 under windows (2000)
+the right part of the page is hidden
+so i use internet explorer :((
+but i try this page under linux with netscape 4.75 i think and it work
+fine ....
+
+that's all ...
+
+
+-- 
+ Nicolas Hognon (aka SilentBob)
+ home : cblt@cblt.org / www.cblt.org
+ work : nicolash@next-url.com / www.next-url.com
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000004.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000004.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..ba91c312 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000004.html @@ -0,0 +1,96 @@ + + + + [Nel] What kind of game are you making? + + + + + + +

[Nel] What kind of game are you making?

+ Vincent Archer + archer@nevrax.com
+ Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:16:39 +0100 +

+
+ +
According to david.belius@chello.se:
+> I found your project on freshmeat and it looks very cool.
+
+Thanks for the attention. And the questions - I'm lazy, and couldn't
+find anything to put in the FAQ yet, so your questions will serve as the
+initial set :)
+
+> You say that you are commercially funded and that the game data does not
+> have to be free even though the code is free.
+> I assume this means you are making a game out of this.
+
+A good assumption. Yes, we are making a game using that platform, or
+we are making that platform for our game, depending on how you look at
+it.
+
+> What kind of game are you making?
+
+We are working on, what else, a MMORPG "whose details are yet to be
+announced (blah blah)". Due to the marketing plans putting a gun on my
+head, I'm not at a liberty to discuss the game content and so on :(
+
+We're trying to be as general as possible, but the emphasis is definitively
+on multiplayer RPG.
+
+> How long have you been working on NeL?
+
+It depends on how you look at it. We've been in pre-planning stages since
+march 2000; looking at architecture options, development contraints,
+potentials pre-existing bits, interesting algorithms, and so on. The
+real, definitive coding has started in earnest early september, which
+is why NeL is not at the stage where you can see anything right sexy
+on your screen now; we're busy filling in the fundations of the library.
+
+With 9 full-time people on the programming staff, however, you can expect
+things to move rather fast. We do have deadlines, which include having a
+visible game skeleton within the next months, and the game proper going
+beta in late 2001, early 2002.
+
+What else can I say. We do expect to provide some form of game data quickly,
+because we don't expect everyone to suddendly turn into a professional
+3D modeler and artist to fill in, so don't despair yet at lack of game data
+(the data will reside in a separate module than the 'code' CVS module
+ available right now).
+
+Can't say what's the "demo data" will be, except it won't be our true
+game data, will be chilly, and you can expect to meet some non-flying birds
+all over the place :)
+
+-- 
+Vincent Archer                                         Email: archer@nevrax.com
+
+Nevrax France.                              Off on the yellow brick road we go!
+
+
+ + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000005.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000005.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..7fc4eab4 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000005.html @@ -0,0 +1,67 @@ + + + + [Nel] problem about the bug report interface + + + + + + +

[Nel] problem about the bug report interface

+ Yan Babilliot + yan@nevrax.com
+ 09 Nov 2000 12:46:40 -0200 +

+
+ +
> Hy ....
+> 
+> yesterday i've submited a little bug in the bug report
+> but i encounter a problem to report it.
+> 
+> on the report bug page we must select the component associated
+> to the bug but under netscape communicator 4.76 under windows (2000)
+> the right part of the page is hidden
+> so i use internet explorer :((
+> but i try this page under linux with netscape 4.75 i think and it work
+> fine ....
+> 
+> that's all ...
+> 
+
+Thank for the bug-report.
+You should now be able to report bugs with Netscape/Windows ;)
+
+
+
+-- 
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000006.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000006.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..ef8ca117 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000006.html @@ -0,0 +1,59 @@ + + + + [Nel] matrix.cpp std::min/max problems? + + + + + + +

[Nel] matrix.cpp std::min/max problems?

+ Cary Farrier + cary@farriersoft.com
+ Thu, 09 Nov 2000 10:50:21 -0800 +

+
+ +
I just updated from the latest CVS snapshot, added r:\code\net\include
+to the project settings, however when compiling matrix.cpp in VC++ 6.0
+(SP3) the compiler is complaining that 'max is not a member of std'.
+
+Any thoughts?
+
+-> Cary
+--
+
+Cary Farrier    
+Farrier Software, Inc.                        (303) 875-9148 fax/message
+cary@farriersoft.com                        <http://www.farriersoft.com>
+
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000007.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000007.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..e4f3c544 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000007.html @@ -0,0 +1,156 @@ + + + + [Nel] How do i compile this beast? Empty FAQ... + + + + + + +

[Nel] How do i compile this beast? Empty FAQ...

+ Stefan Nilsen + stefan.nilsen@telia.com
+ Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:43:58 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hi guys.
+
+I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but what do i do after i have CVS'ed 
+home this thing?
+
+Look below for my trial and (mostly) error.
+
+I would like to RTFM, but i don't find any :-(
+
+Pls help me!
+
+Btw, I run SuSE 7.0 if that helps anyone, and my computer is Y2K safe :-)
+
+----- cut here -----
+
+A loosers guide to automake! ;-)
+
+
+I have tried the following commands:
+aclocal  
+
+(i got myself an aclocal.m4)
+
+automake 
+
+automake: configure.in: required file `./install-sh' not found
+automake: configure.in: required file `./mkinstalldirs' not found
+automake: configure.in: required file `./missing' not found
+automake: configure.in: required file `./config.guess' not found
+automake: configure.in: required file `./config.sub' not found
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./INSTALL' not found
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./NEWS' not found
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./README' not found
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./COPYING' not found
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./AUTHORS' not found
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./ChangeLog' not found
+configure.in: 11: required file `./include/config.h.in' not found   
+
+automake -a
+
+automake: configure.in: installing `./install-sh'
+automake: configure.in: installing `./mkinstalldirs'
+automake: configure.in: installing `./missing'
+automake: configure.in: installing `./config.guess'
+automake: configure.in: installing `./config.sub'
+automake: Makefile.am: installing `./INSTALL'
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./NEWS' not found
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./README' not found
+automake: Makefile.am: installing `./COPYING'
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./AUTHORS' not found
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./ChangeLog' not found
+configure.in: 11: required file `./include/config.h.in' not found  
+
+autoconf
+
+This gives me some of the missing files in the step above.
+
+automake -a  (again...)
+
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./NEWS' not found
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./README' not found
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./AUTHORS' not found
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./ChangeLog' not found
+configure.in: 11: required file `./include/config.h.in' not found  
+
+autoheader
+
+(silence...)
+
+automake -a (a final time...)
+
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./NEWS' not found
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./README' not found
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./AUTHORS' not found
+automake: Makefile.am: required file `./ChangeLog' not found   
+
+./configure
+
+...
+...
+...
+checking for fcntl.h... yes
+checking for unistd.h... yes
+checking for working const... yes
+updating cache ./config.cache
+creating ./config.status
+creating Makefile
+creating src/Makefile
+creating src/misc/Makefile
+creating src/net/Makefile
+creating include/Makefile
+sed: can't read ./include/Makefile.in: No such file or directory
+creating lib/Makefile
+sed: can't read ./lib/Makefile.in: No such file or directory
+creating doc/Makefile
+sed: can't read ./doc/Makefile.in: No such file or directory
+creating include/config.h    
+
+make
+
+Making all in include
+make[1]: Entering directory `/home/stni/workproj/nel/code/nel/include'
+make[1]: *** No rule to make target `all'.  Stop.
+make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/stni/workproj/nel/code/nel/include'
+make: *** [all-recursive] Error 1       
+
+
+
+ + + + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000008.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000008.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..a1ff295f --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000008.html @@ -0,0 +1,61 @@ + + + + [Nel] matrix.cpp std::min/max problems? + + + + + + +

[Nel] matrix.cpp std::min/max problems?

+ Vincent Archer + archer@nevrax.com
+ Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:32:47 +0100 +

+
+ +
According to Cary Farrier:
+> I just updated from the latest CVS snapshot, added r:\code\net\include
+> to the project settings, however when compiling matrix.cpp in VC++ 6.0
+> (SP3) the compiler is complaining that 'max is not a member of std'.
+
+Note that, strictly speaking, bug reports should go thru the web
+interface rather than the mailing list. It's a lot easier to manage
+there. Use the mailing list if you can't access the WWW at all
+for some reason (like being buried deep behind 4 firewalls that require
+you to sign in blood to access the outside world).
+
+Bug reported to the developper in charge.
+-- 
+Vincent Archer                                         Email: archer@nevrax.com
+
+Nevrax France.                              Off on the yellow brick road we go!
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000009.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000009.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..31d145c6 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000009.html @@ -0,0 +1,62 @@ + + + + [Nel] List settings changes + + + + + + +

[Nel] List settings changes

+ Vincent Archer + archer@nevrax.com
+ Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:41:37 +0100 +

+
+ +
Administrative note: I've switched the list settings. Made the list
+membership private - i.e. you have to enter your password to access
+the list members, in order to avoid spammers grabbing the list -, and
+what's more important, redirected replies to mailing list itself.
+
+If you want to reply to the sender of the message itself, you now have
+to use a group reply, and then edit the recipients to remove the list.
+
+-- 
+Vincent Archer                                         Email: archer@nevrax.com
+
+Nevrax France.                              Off on the yellow brick road we go!
+
+
+ + + + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000010.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000010.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..c2933e5c --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000010.html @@ -0,0 +1,70 @@ + + + + [Nel] How do i compile this beast? Empty FAQ... + + + + + + +

[Nel] How do i compile this beast? Empty FAQ...

+ Valignat Cedric + valignat@nevrax.com
+ Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:09:32 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hi,
+
+Stefan Nilsen wrote:
+> 
+> I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but what do i do after i have CVS'ed 
+> home this thing?
+>
+> [...]
+
+At the moment the library is compiling only on Visual C++ :-(
+
+We are currently working on this problem, it sould be fix soon.
+
+Sorry about that ...
+
+
+> A loosers guide to automake! ;-)
+
+Thanks for your help ! :-)
+
+
+Cedric.
+
+
+ + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000011.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000011.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..d7ac46f3 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000011.html @@ -0,0 +1,80 @@ + + + + [Nel] matrix.cpp std::min/max problems? + + + + + + +

[Nel] matrix.cpp std::min/max problems?

+ Bryce Harrington + bryce@neptune.net
+ Fri, 10 Nov 2000 02:22:23 -0800 (PST) +

+
+ +
Hi Cary, 
+
+The VC++/STL min/max problem is pretty well known, and is a result of a
+very buggy STL implementation in VC++, and some lawsuits. 
+
+Simple answer:  Define NOMINMAX in your Build Settings
+
+Longer answer:  
+http://www.isis.ecs.soton.ac.uk/share/problems/fuzzyClouds/NetMet/netmet/docs/stlhelp.txt
+
+The STL that ships with Visual C++ was developed by Dinkumware, rather
+than by Microsoft.  Detailed errata is available here:
+    http://www.dinkumware.com/
+
+Bryce
+
+On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Vincent Archer wrote:
+> According to Cary Farrier:
+> > I just updated from the latest CVS snapshot, added r:\code\net\include
+> > to the project settings, however when compiling matrix.cpp in VC++ 6.0
+> > (SP3) the compiler is complaining that 'max is not a member of std'.
+> 
+> Note that, strictly speaking, bug reports should go thru the web
+> interface rather than the mailing list. It's a lot easier to manage
+> there. Use the mailing list if you can't access the WWW at all
+> for some reason (like being buried deep behind 4 firewalls that require
+> you to sign in blood to access the outside world).
+> 
+> Bug reported to the developper in charge.
+> 
+
+-- 
+Bryce Harrington
+bryce @ neptune.net
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000012.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000012.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..c6973690 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000012.html @@ -0,0 +1,52 @@ + + + + [Nel] WorldForge + + + + + + +

[Nel] WorldForge

+ Olivier Lejade + lejade@nevrax.com
+ Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:29:31 +0100 +

+
+ +
Well, it seems like we have our first celebrity on the list ! ;)
+The coordinator of the WorldForge project himself (http://www.worldforge.org).
+Welcome Bryce ! So what do you think of NeL ?
+
+
+
+ + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000013.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000013.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..fde686a0 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000013.html @@ -0,0 +1,93 @@ + + + + [Nel] matrix.cpp std::min/max problems? + + + + + + +

[Nel] matrix.cpp std::min/max problems?

+ Vianney Lecroart + lecroart@nevrax.com
+ Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:43:48 +0100 +

+
+ +
> The VC++/STL min/max problem is pretty well known, and is a result of a
+> very buggy STL implementation in VC++, and some lawsuits.
+>
+> Simple answer:  Define NOMINMAX in your Build Settings
+
+ok, this define disables the macro min & max, it's same behavior as doing
+#undef min #undef max
+but I search min in the VC include directory and subdirectory and there s
+*no* min
+definition in the STL (no template min) so we have to define our own min &
+max
+template function in our code... no very cool...
+
+> Longer answer:
+>
+http://www.isis.ecs.soton.ac.uk/share/problems/fuzzyClouds/NetMet/netmet/doc
+s/stlhelp.txt
+>
+> The STL that ships with Visual C++ was developed by Dinkumware, rather
+> than by Microsoft.  Detailed errata is available here:
+>     http://www.dinkumware.com/
+>
+> Bryce
+>
+> On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Vincent Archer wrote:
+> > According to Cary Farrier:
+> > > I just updated from the latest CVS snapshot, added r:\code\net\include
+> > > to the project settings, however when compiling matrix.cpp in VC++ 6.0
+> > > (SP3) the compiler is complaining that 'max is not a member of std'.
+> >
+> > Note that, strictly speaking, bug reports should go thru the web
+> > interface rather than the mailing list. It's a lot easier to manage
+> > there. Use the mailing list if you can't access the WWW at all
+> > for some reason (like being buried deep behind 4 firewalls that require
+> > you to sign in blood to access the outside world).
+> >
+> > Bug reported to the developper in charge.
+> >
+>
+> --
+> Bryce Harrington
+> bryce @ neptune.net
+>
+> _______________________________________________
+> Nel mailing list
+> Nel@nevrax.org
+> http://www.nevrax.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/nel
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000014.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000014.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..0e298068 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000014.html @@ -0,0 +1,91 @@ + + + + [Nel] WorldForge + + + + + + +

[Nel] WorldForge

+ Thierry Mallard + thierry@mallard.com
+ Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:39:36 +0100 +

+
+ +
--d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND
+Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
+Content-Disposition: inline
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+
+Greetings to you all ... :-)
+
+
+On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 11:29:31AM +0100, Olivier Lejade wrote:
+> Well, it seems like we have our first celebrity on the list ! ;)
+> The coordinator of the WorldForge project himself (http://www.worldforge.=
+org).
+
+Whooo hooo :-)
+
+> Welcome Bryce ! So what do you think of NeL ?
+
+Good question, I'm listening too ..
+
+	Thierry Mallard, a.k.a Shaman on Worldforge.org ;-)
+	(who didn't do much on this)
+
+
+--=20
+Thierry Mallard              |             =20
+GnuPG key on wwwkeys.pgp.net |
+key 0xA3D021CB               |
+http://thierry.mallard.com   |    =20
+
+--d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND
+Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
+Content-Disposition: inline
+
+-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
+Version: GnuPG v1.0.3 (GNU/Linux)
+Comment: Pour information voir http://www.gnupg.org
+
+iEYEARECAAYFAjoL0GgACgkQGBtCB6PQIcs6PACgyR9Uzbymw/yEYYnbrhGLulAl
+a88AoJxjE9nBMJkE1+yXHk2LjzTTEWXe
+=hdVU
+-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
+
+--d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND--
+
+
+
+ + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000015.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000015.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..95f27a17 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000015.html @@ -0,0 +1,105 @@ + + + + [Nel] matrix.cpp std::min/max problems? + + + + + + +

[Nel] matrix.cpp std::min/max problems?

+ Bryce Harrington + bryce@neptune.net
+ Fri, 10 Nov 2000 03:43:08 -0800 (PST) +

+
+ +
Heh, well sorry but that's MS for ya...  
+
+As I recall, if you go MFC-free this particular issue will vanish.
+However there are other insidious STL bugs with Visual C++.
+
+If in fact you are using MFC, I would urge you to cease doing so at the
+earliest convenience.  Not only for portability reasons (MFC *ain't*
+portable, especially not backwards-wise) but also because it is a poor
+architecture for GUI development, and is not really in the GPL spirit of
+things.  If you intend to conduct your development openly as a net
+project, then crossplatformness is going to be especially treasured by
+you.  There are many options for crossplatform GUI libs.  Let me know if
+you'd like to discuss this more.  My two preferred libs are wxWindows
+(good for OS-matching widgets for editors and similar), or libuta (SDL
+compatible and skinnable).  Mozilla has another cross platform GUI lib
+but I've not used it in its current incarnation so don't know whether
+it's usable independently of Mozilla.
+
+FWIW, I always stick this boilerplate code in any file that uses STL
+that I'd like to compile with MSVC 4.2:
+
+#ifdef _MSC_VER
+// Fix broken STL implementation in MSVC 4.2
+// Include files (for MSVC)
+#pragma warning(disable: 4786)  // Kludge to get around bug in MSVC 4.2
+#pragma warning(disable: 4788)  // See above
+#endif
+
+I think you may be stuck including your own max/min template functions.
+That's a pretty minor thing compared with some of the patches you may
+have to make to work around some of the other issues (especially if you
+want to support pre-6.0 MSVC).  
+
+Ultimately, you're going to want to trim down use of STL anyway, so you
+can recover the performance loss.  We still use STL at WorldForge, for
+instance, but some simple tests show that hand coded, non-templated map
+and list classes provide some modest performance gains, and some day
+when we're down to squeezing out the last bits of performance, we'll
+probably be pulling STL out ourselves.
+
+Bryce
+
+On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Vianney Lecroart wrote:
+
+> > The VC++/STL min/max problem is pretty well known, and is a result of a
+> > very buggy STL implementation in VC++, and some lawsuits.
+> >
+> > Simple answer:  Define NOMINMAX in your Build Settings
+> 
+> ok, this define disables the macro min & max, it's same behavior as doing
+> #undef min #undef max
+> but I search min in the VC include directory and subdirectory and there s
+> *no* min
+> definition in the STL (no template min) so we have to define our own min &
+> max
+> template function in our code... no very cool...
+
+-- 
+Bryce Harrington
+bryce @ neptune.net
+
+
+
+ + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000016.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000016.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..669a8c08 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000016.html @@ -0,0 +1,72 @@ + + + + [Nel] WorldForge + + + + + + +

[Nel] WorldForge

+ Bryce Harrington + bryce@neptune.net
+ Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:03:48 -0800 (PST) +

+
+ +
On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Thierry Mallard wrote:
+> On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 11:29:31AM +0100, Olivier Lejade wrote:
+> > Well, it seems like we have our first celebrity on the list ! ;)
+> > The coordinator of the WorldForge project himself (http://www.worldforge.org).
+> 
+> Whooo hooo :-)
+
+*Grin*  Hiya.
+ 
+> > Welcome Bryce ! So what do you think of NeL ?
+> 
+> Good question, I'm listening too ..
+
+Ah, well at this point I'm just being a pair of ears.  I'm hoping to get
+a pointer to something describing what the group's plan is or some feel
+for the "big picture".
+
+(I've seen a depressingly large number of well-meaning groups trying the
+combined commercial and open source approach for game development and
+crash and burn spectacularly, so I figure either I'll learn something or
+get to roast a marshmallow or two.  *wink*)
+
+-- 
+Bryce Harrington
+bryce @ neptune.net
+
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000017.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000017.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..17a529b7 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000017.html @@ -0,0 +1,81 @@ + + + + [Nel] WorldForge + + + + + + +

[Nel] WorldForge

+ Olivier Lejade + olivier@nevrax.com
+ Sat, 11 Nov 2000 15:18:09 +0100 +

+
+ +
At 03:03 PM 11/10/00 -0800, you wrote:
+>On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Thierry Mallard wrote:
+> > On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 11:29:31AM +0100, Olivier Lejade wrote:
+> > > Well, it seems like we have our first celebrity on the list ! ;)
+> > > The coordinator of the WorldForge project himself 
+> (http://www.worldforge.org).
+> >
+> > Whooo hooo :-)
+>
+>*Grin*  Hiya.
+>
+> > > Welcome Bryce ! So what do you think of NeL ?
+> >
+> > Good question, I'm listening too ..
+>
+>
+>
+>(I've seen a depressingly large number of well-meaning groups trying the
+>combined commercial and open source approach for game development and
+>crash and burn spectacularly, so I figure either I'll learn something or
+>get to roast a marshmallow or two.  *wink*)
+>
+>--
+>Bryce Harrington
+>bryce @ neptune.net
+>
+>_______________________________________________
+>Nel mailing list
+>Nel@nevrax.org
+>http://www.nevrax.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/nel
+
+
+--
+"Minds are like parachutes. They work best when open."
+
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000018.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000018.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..5291c9ed --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000018.html @@ -0,0 +1,153 @@ + + + + [Nel] Greetings! And some questions / comments + + + + + + +

[Nel] Greetings! And some questions / comments

+ Sal + sferro@wojo.com
+ Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:18:21 -0500 +

+
+ +
Hi,
+
+First a little rant to explain my being here: :-)
+
+    I am also a Worldforge developer, like Bryce.  Though not nearly as
+famous ;-)   I stumbled upon Nevrax the other day and am very interested in
+its development.  My goal a few years back was to help create a free,
+massively multiplayer online RPG system, one that I could enjoy myself and
+that others could build from to make their own persistant online worlds.
+And a commercial effort such as Nevrax could be a powerful force in helping
+to achieve such a goal.
+
+    Most opensource projects that start up have caught my eye, the first
+being the Ultima online emulator scene which  I was a part of for a long
+time, coding admin tools, NPC ai, network code, etc. Whatever seemed the
+most challenging task.   I got soon fed up with having to deal with the idea
+that all the hard work might not even turn out to be legal, and all the
+problems that OSI provided for the emu scene I didnt care for.  So I then
+came across Worldforge, and that is where I am. Finally a totally free
+opensource project that met, if not exceeded my own standards for an online
+gaming system.
+
+    So I took on the responsibility of developer XClient, a 3d client.  The
+root of its homepage is here, if anyone's interested:
+http://www.worldforge.org/website/clients/xclient/
+
+    Some shots of its recent developments (a terrain engine) are here:
+http://www.worldforge.org/images/screenshots/terrain1.jpg
+http://www.worldforge.org/images/screenshots/terrain2.jpg
+    (Its very early in development)
+
+    Some old out of date client shots:
+http://www.worldforge.org/website/clients/xclient/screenshots/
+
+    And lastly, a goals paper that I've recently written to illustrate what
+the goals are in XClient development.  This one I recommend reading above
+the others.
+http://www.worldforge.org/website/clients/xclient/developer/goals
+
+    I've also created a Map editor (XEdit) a UDP networking library based
+off of the GPLd quake code (XUDP) and a simple test server (XServer).  All
+of this and XClient are in Worldforge cvs for those interested.  If there
+are questions about any of these things, please ask!
+
+    Anyhow, yes there is a point to all this.  It seems that a lot of
+Worldforge's goals and development are in tandem with Nevrax's.  So,  I
+thought it would be worth it to see  1) how compatible our projects are and
+2) if we might be able to help each other out in any form, whether it be
+artwork, code, or knowledge.  3) how much interest, if any, there is in
+sharing efforts.
+
+    So if I could ask a few questions.  I tried finding out some information
+through the website, but some questions remain:
+
+1)  I understand that Nel will be a library to create games, but is this
+project also developing a specific game that uses the library?  If so what
+details of it are known?  As far as ruleset... gameplay...
+
+2)  What is the development strategy?  For example Worldforge will be
+developing several smaller diverse games in succession (Acorn, Mason... etc.
+etc.) until we reach the final goal, entitled 'BelchFire'.  Will you guys be
+doing a similar thing?
+
+3)  What features/goals are there for the 3d engine?  What's being targeted
+(high end/low end hardware)?  What rendering APIs?  Software mode?
+
+4)  I get this question a lot :-)  Why develop a 3d engine from scratch? Why
+not use/build from an existing engine, such as Crystal Space?
+
+5)  What are the capabilities of the current codebase?
+
+6)  Is development open to outside influence? Or are you following an
+internal-only plan, and just opensourcing the results?
+
+7)  Was there knowledge of Worldforge when this project was started?  And if
+so,  why was it deemed necessary to start another,  independant effort with
+the same goals?
+
+8)  Would it be possible to get a brief description of what Nevrax will use
+in the following areas:
+                - Protocol (UDP? TCP/IP?)
+                - Mapfile format (Custom? XML? Binary? Database-Driven?)
+                - Mapfile editors (What existing tools will be used, if
+any?)
+                - Model format(s)
+                - Texture format(s)
+
+9)  How the heck do you guys manage to pay a full development team off of
+free software? :-)
+
+
+    Thats about all I have for now.  I'm sure more will come up in the
+future.  You might want to put a few of those in the FAQ, I've noticed its
+in need of some fulfilling... and other people may have similair questions.
+
+    Anyhow, thanks in advance, and Congratulations and Good Luck in your
+efforts.  Its a challenging and rewarding goal that we are working towards.
+I look forward to exchanging thoughts and ideas in the near future!
+
+- Sal
+sferro@wojo.com
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+ + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000019.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000019.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..e0384706 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000019.html @@ -0,0 +1,50 @@ + + + + [Nel] How do i compile this beast? Empty FAQ... + + + + + + +

[Nel] How do i compile this beast? Empty FAQ...

+ Stefan Nilsen + stefan.nilsen@telia.com
+ Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:55:37 +0100 +

+
+ +
> At the moment the library is compiling only on Visual C++ :-(
+>
+> We are currently working on this problem, it sould be fix soon.
+
+Ok, that explains it. Maybe I'm not stupid after all... :-)
+
+
+
+ + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000020.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000020.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..3c97275b --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000020.html @@ -0,0 +1,97 @@ + + + + [Nel] Some Linux patches + + + + + + +

[Nel] Some Linux patches

+ Stefan Nilsen + stefan.nilsen@telia.com
+ Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:04:22 +0100 +

+
+ +
I made som fixes for compile on Linux.
+
+This is the first time i submit a patch, so please tell me if i'm doing 
+anything wrong.
+
+Index: Makefile.am
+===================================================================
+RCS file: /home/cvsroot/code/nel/Makefile.am,v
+retrieving revision 1.1
+diff -r1.1 Makefile.am
+9c9
+< SUBDIRS= include src lib doc
+---
+> SUBDIRS= src doc
+Index: src/net/base_socket.cpp
+===================================================================
+RCS file: /home/cvsroot/code/nel/src/net/base_socket.cpp,v
+retrieving revision 1.16
+diff -r1.16 base_socket.cpp
+40a41,42
+> #define __need_timeval
+> #include <bits/time.h>
+42c44
+< #include <netinet/tcp/h>
+---
+> #include <netinet/tcp.h>
+261c263
+< 	int saddrlen = sizeof(saddr);
+---
+> 	socklen_t saddrlen = sizeof(saddr);
+344c346
+< 	int saddrlen = sizeof(saddr);
+---
+> 	socklen_t saddrlen = sizeof(saddr);
+374c376
+<
+---
+>
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000021.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000021.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..43590a05 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000021.html @@ -0,0 +1,180 @@ + + + + [Nel] Greetings! And some questions / comments + + + + + + +

[Nel] Greetings! And some questions / comments

+ Olivier Lejade + lejade@nevrax.com
+ Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:58:30 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hi Sal,
+
+My name is Olivier Lejade, I am Nevrax's CEO. I won't be intervening too 
+much on this list since we really would like to keep things technically 
+oriented, but since there seems to be so a lot of questions, I figured it 
+would be a good idea to answer some of them here so that they can go in the 
+FAQ.
+I'll leave the technically oriented ones to the Code Team though.
+
+At 04:18 PM 11/11/00 -0500, you wrote:
+>I am also a Worldforge developer, like Bryce.  Though not nearly as
+>famous ;-)
+
+Or so you think... ;)
+
+>And a commercial effort such as Nevrax could be a powerful force in helping
+>to achieve such a goal.
+
+Thanks for the attention.
+We hope and believe so too.
+
+>So I then
+>came across Worldforge, and that is where I am. Finally a totally free
+>opensource project that met, if not exceeded my own standards for an online
+>gaming system.
+
+Yes, WorldForge is a very impressive project with a very, very large scope. 
+We are all admirative of your capacity to handle such a large and diverse 
+community. Managing a team of artists over the internet is especially 
+daunting and WF has accomplished an incredible feat in this area.
+As Bryce kindly reminded me, code is cheap compared to Art...
+
+Here at Nevrax, we do not intend to have such a large range of activity. We 
+are concentrating on a 3D client (no 2D, text, etc) and we are doing all 
+the artwork/game design internally.
+Nevrax.org will focus on fostering a "technical" community.
+
+>1) how compatible our projects are
+
+I'll let the coders answer on the technical aspect. However, on a more 
+philosophical point of vue, I'd say our project are very compatible, 
+siblings really, since they are both GPL.
+
+>1)  I understand that Nel will be a library to create games, but is this
+>project also developing a specific game that uses the library?
+
+Yes. we are currently developing a yet unannounced commercial MMORPG.
+
+>If so what
+>details of it are known?  As far as ruleset... gameplay...
+
+At this time, I'm sorry to say we cannot disclose any information 
+concerning game design / artwork. However things are bound to change as we 
+go along, and some information will start trickling out in the coming months.
+
+>2)  What is the development strategy?  For example Worldforge will be
+>developing several smaller diverse games in succession (Acorn, Mason... etc.
+>etc.) until we reach the final goal, entitled 'BelchFire'.  Will you guys be
+>doing a similar thing?
+
+Not in the sense of WF (i.e lots of intermediary games). We are working on 
+a single game. However, we do have a number of milestones. Also by the end 
+of the year, we will be disclosing a "sample world" under an open content 
+license for the community to kick around and have fun with. But this will 
+have nothing to do with our final game.
+
+>4)  I get this question a lot :-)  Why develop a 3d engine from scratch? Why
+>not use/build from an existing engine, such as Crystal Space?
+
+We checked out CS of course as well as many others, and while it is a very 
+nice engine, it did not seem to fit our particular needs.
+
+>6)  Is development open to outside influence? Or are you following an
+>internal-only plan, and just opensourcing the results?
+
+Well, we are following an internal plan and Freeing the resulting software, 
+however we are very open to outside influence on technical aspects. And 
+while we concentrate on our priorities, we will integrate any worthwhile 
+functionnality.
+
+On the game content side though, we are keeping things to ourselves for now.
+Expect to be really, really suprised though... :)
+
+>7)  Was there knowledge of Worldforge when this project was started?  And if
+>so,  why was it deemed necessary to start another,  independant effort with
+>the same goals?
+
+Yes, we knew of WF (actually, since the time it was called Altima !).
+We took some time to consider joining the effort, however we felt there was 
+a number of reasons for not doing so. I'll give you some of them :
+
+- We wanted to keep a tight focus on the game we are doing and did not want 
+to be hindered in political struggles to get the code where we needed. We 
+felt the WF community might ressent us steering in directions that they 
+would not care for. We have a tight schedule : we want the game out in 2002.
+Which means we could'nt spare to much time arguing about it.
+
+- We have different goals : we are a commercial entity. We don't have the 
+educational/hobbyist approach of WF. Nevrax has a complete team of seasoned 
+professionals not only at the programming level, but also on the design / 
+3D artwork / concept side working every day towards one goal : getting the 
+game out.
+
+- We have a highly original world which poses a great number of 
+constraints. We felt we would be in a better position to adress them by 
+leading our own effort.
+
+That said, I must emphasize that we do not see ourselves as "competing" 
+with WF. We are simply two different projects, taking two different 
+approach at building a Free Software system for MMORPGs. Diversity is A 
+Good Thing.
+I wish WF will succeed and I hope there will be as much cooperation between 
+the two projects as possible.
+
+>9)  How the heck do you guys manage to pay a full development team off of
+>free software? :-)
+
+Ah ha ! :)
+
+Free Software doesn't mean free content or free service.
+While our software is Free, we retain property of our game data. And to 
+access our servers in order to play our game, users will be asked to pay a 
+monthly fee just like with the other commercial games.
+
+Bottom line is : Free Software and commercial MMORPGs are a perfect match. 
+And we believe we have everything to gain and nothing to loose by opening 
+our source code.
+
+I hope this clarifies things a little even though I'm sure it will raise 
+even more questions !
+
+Thanks for your encouragments,
+
+Olivier
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000022.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000022.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..396208f3 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000022.html @@ -0,0 +1,110 @@ + + + + [Nel] Greetings! And some questions / comments + + + + + + +

[Nel] Greetings! And some questions / comments

+ Sal + sferro@wojo.com
+ Sun, 12 Nov 2000 10:34:56 -0500 +

+
+ +
> Hi Sal,
+>
+> My name is Olivier Lejade, I am Nevrax's CEO. I won't be intervening too
+> much on this list since we really would like to keep things technically
+> oriented, but since there seems to be so a lot of questions, I figured it
+> would be a good idea to answer some of them here so that they can go in
+the
+> FAQ.
+> I'll leave the technically oriented ones to the Code Team though.
+
+    Thank you for taking the time to respond Olivier, this clears up a lot
+of questions!
+
+> Managing a team of artists over the internet is especially
+> daunting and WF has accomplished an incredible feat in this area.
+> As Bryce kindly reminded me, code is cheap compared to Art...
+
+    I very much agree here.  In my experience I've discovered that media is
+very hard to come by.  Talented artists don't like to work for free, and who
+can blame them, a lot of the industry's tools are expensive and take a lot
+of effort and time to learn.  I think this is one of the biggest obstacles
+in free game software development, the lack of good, free media.  If Nevrax
+is able to help out in this area, the opensource commmunity, Worldforge
+included, would be very grateful...
+
+[ ... ]
+> Well, we are following an internal plan and Freeing the resulting
+software,
+> however we are very open to outside influence on technical aspects. And
+> while we concentrate on our priorities, we will integrate any worthwhile
+> functionnality.
+[ ... ]
+
+    I understand your intentions.  With openness in development comes
+conflict in views on many issues.  As a project under a tight schedule,
+resolving all issues in the open might not be the most efficient approach
+timewise.
+
+    If there still is any desire to collaborate on things such as client
+engine design, I would be happy to.  If XClient and the Nel client could be
+made more compatible in any way, I think it would be worth the effort.  If
+similairity in protocol could be obtained, then our software could
+communicate with each other.  Likewise, if rendering architecture was
+similair, we could collaborate on, and/or share pieces of code for the game
+engines.  Either way I think it could mean saving work and time for the both
+of us...
+
+    On the other hand, collaborating would logically take some effort, which
+I understand Nevrax may or may not have the time for.  It still might be
+worth considering, at any rate.
+
+> Bottom line is : Free Software and commercial MMORPGs are a perfect match.
+> And we believe we have everything to gain and nothing to loose by opening
+> our source code.
+
+    Here I very much agree, also!
+
+> I hope this clarifies things a little even though I'm sure it will raise
+> even more questions !
+
+    Thanks again!  And I await the answers to the other, more technical
+questions. ;-)
+
+- Sal
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000023.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000023.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..a729cb58 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000023.html @@ -0,0 +1,143 @@ + + + + [Nel] Greetings! And some questions / comments + + + + + + +

[Nel] Greetings! And some questions / comments

+ Vianney Lecroart + lecroart@nevrax.com
+ Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:37:49 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hello sal!
+
+> 3)  What features/goals are there for the 3d engine?  What's being
+targeted
+> (high end/low end hardware)?  What rendering APIs?  Software mode?
+
+you can take a look on the nel whitepaper, it explains (briefly) all
+features
+of the 3d engine (http://www.nevrax.org/docs/doxygen/nel/general.html)
+that we plan to develop.
+
+> 5)  What are the capabilities of the current codebase?
+
+hum... good question :-) today, the code is not able to do lot of things but
+it'll change in few weeks. the misc component contains lot of really cool
+tools like serializable system, input events system, internationalization,
+math classes, etc...
+there's only the skeleton of the 3d engine but, low level layers start to
+work
+and it'll display polygons in few days :) the low interface font manager is
+ready
+to display text and we work hardly on tools for the graphics team (but
+theses
+tools are still private cause of 3ds max sdk).
+for the network components, all communication layers are available.
+the service based class is ready too and will be extented in the futur.
+few services run too, so you can compile our first service executables :)
+we'll work on a "client" exectuable to explains how to use nel and
+perhaps, display someting :)
+
+> 6)  Is development open to outside influence? Or are you following an
+> internal-only plan, and just opensourcing the results?
+
+We Want You! :-) of course we hope to work with the free software community.
+
+> 8)  Would it be possible to get a brief description of what Nevrax will
+use
+> in the following areas:
+
+is the whitepaper not enough? ok , we ll add some stuffs on it :)
+
+>                 - Protocol (UDP? TCP/IP?)
+
+for now, we only manage TCP/IP and plan to use UDP only the visual effect
+like
+smooth dead reckoning (the standard dead reckoning will be in TCP/IP for
+some
+cheating reasons)
+
+>                 - Mapfile format (Custom? XML? Binary? Database-Driven?)
+
+we use a generic streamable and serializable system so we don't have any
+file format :-)
+it's a really powerful system!!! and so easy to manage!
+
+>                 - Mapfile editors (What existing tools will be used, if
+> any?)
+
+we use 3ds max only, and we create plugins for our needs.
+
+>                 - Model format(s)
+
+same as mapfile :)
+
+>                 - Texture format(s)
+
+we use .dds format for pre-compressed texture format (DXTC*) and
+pre-computed mimap.
+we also use .tga for normal texture/image :-)
+
+> 9)  How the heck do you guys manage to pay a full development team off of
+> free software? :-)
+
+we are paid, i can confirm :-)
+
+>     Thats about all I have for now.  I'm sure more will come up in the
+> future.  You might want to put a few of those in the FAQ, I've noticed its
+> in need of some fulfilling... and other people may have similair
+questions.
+
+yes, we'll add these questions in the FAQ!
+
+>     Anyhow, thanks in advance, and Congratulations and Good Luck in your
+> efforts.  Its a challenging and rewarding goal that we are working
+towards.
+> I look forward to exchanging thoughts and ideas in the near future!
+
+thanks
+
+Vianney Lecroart
+---
+lead programmer / nevrax.com
+icq#: 6870415
+homepage: http://ace.planet-d.net
+www.geek.com: GCS/E d- s+++: a-- C+++$ UL++ P- L+++>+$ E+>- W++ N+ o? K-
+w++$ O- M- V- PS- PE? Y PGP t 5? X+ R- tv++ b- DI D+ G e++ h+ r-- y?
+
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000024.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000024.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..479940c2 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000024.html @@ -0,0 +1,72 @@ + + + + [Nel] Linux build + + + + + + +

[Nel] Linux build

+ Dim Segebart + zager@teleaction.com
+ Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:05:30 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hello, to all !
+Nice to see what all my dreams come true )))
+I know what linux autoconf stuff isn't ready yet, but
+anyway may I ask developers of NeL when we might be
+able to put our hands on it ?
+This is not a problem for me to create one by myself, by I'm
+afraid it's not a very good idea, since I lack the knowledge of
+internal dependencies and too lazy to reboot my PC in windows mode with
+VC++
+installed ;))
+Wish you good luck
+
+--
+Dim Zager
+
+
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000025.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000025.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..a4f22dbd --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000025.html @@ -0,0 +1,110 @@ + + + + [Nel] Greetings! And some questions / comments + + + + + + +

[Nel] Greetings! And some questions / comments

+ Sal + sferro@wojo.com
+ Mon, 13 Nov 2000 16:40:01 -0500 +

+
+ +
Hello Vianney,  I'm glad to have made acquaintance with the lead programmer
+of this amazing effort!
+
+> Hello sal!
+>
+> > 3)  What features/goals are there for the 3d engine?  What's being
+> targeted
+> > (high end/low end hardware)?  What rendering APIs?  Software mode?
+>
+> you can take a look on the nel whitepaper, it explains (briefly) all
+> features
+> of the 3d engine (http://www.nevrax.org/docs/doxygen/nel/general.html)
+> that we plan to develop.
+
+    Thanks for your time in answering my questions.  I took the time the
+other day to read all the documentation, and look at the source code.  I
+must say, it is well structured, easy to understand, and well commented.
+And its good to see that the code is being documented well at such an early
+stage. Good work, and I hope it keeps it up like this!
+
+> few services run too, so you can compile our first service executables :)
+> we'll work on a "client" exectuable to explains how to use nel and
+> perhaps, display someting :)
+
+    A client executable would be nice, I'm interested in playing with all
+this neat stuff!  This would logically be needed for testing and developing
+new features, also.
+
+    Btw, I noticed that the OpenGL renderer is well abstracted, and it seems
+to me that a Direct3D renderer would not be very hard to create.
+Coincidentally I'm working on a new DirectX 8/d3d renderer for xclient. If
+theres interest I could help create a Direct3D implementation of your
+rendering interface in the future. Or is one already in progress?   ( I have
+nothing against OpenGL, its just that I have experience in d3d that might be
+of help, and Direct3D performs well on my system. )
+
+> [...] and we work hardly on tools for the graphics team (but
+> theses
+> tools are still private cause of 3ds max sdk).
+
+    This raises a question I've been pondering myself.  I've also recently
+created MAX plugins for xclient, for exporting skeletal animated characters
+from character studio.  Do you (or anyone) know offhand if the sources to
+these are distributable? Or does the sdk licensing prohibit it?  I wasn't
+able to resolve this from the documention included.  I know that the sdk
+itself isn't distributable, but I had hoped that derivative works were
+o.k...
+
+> > 6)  Is development open to outside influence? Or are you following an
+> > internal-only plan, and just opensourcing the results?
+>
+> We Want You! :-) of course we hope to work with the free software
+community.
+
+    Thats great to hear.  I (and I'm sure many others) would like to see
+this operation become a success, and would like to help it do so.  As is
+evident with the existance of projects like Worldforge, one can see that a
+GPLish mmorpg system is very desired by many people.  I also think it would
+be cool if Nevrax showed the world that Free Software works, even in the
+commercial market... and maybe help encourage other companies to do the same
+in the future.
+
+Thanks again for the info!
+- Sal
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000026.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000026.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..c330ea8e --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000026.html @@ -0,0 +1,106 @@ + + + + [Nel] my last email :) + + + + + + +

[Nel] my last email :)

+ Vianney Lecroart + lecroart@nevrax.com
+ Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:11:39 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hello all,
+
+>     Thanks for your time in answering my questions.  I took the time the
+> other day to read all the documentation, and look at the source code.  I
+> must say, it is well structured, easy to understand, and well commented.
+> And its good to see that the code is being documented well at such an
+early
+> stage. Good work, and I hope it keeps it up like this!
+
+Thanks a lot :) We hope to continue in this way!
+
+>     A client executable would be nice, I'm interested in playing with all
+> this neat stuff!  This would logically be needed for testing and
+developing
+> new features, also.
+
+In a first time, this client will do nothing else than init the nel lib and
+perhaps
+display a text and a triangle :) be patient!
+
+>     Btw, I noticed that the OpenGL renderer is well abstracted, and it
+seems
+> to me that a Direct3D renderer would not be very hard to create.
+> Coincidentally I'm working on a new DirectX 8/d3d renderer for xclient. If
+> theres interest I could help create a Direct3D implementation of your
+> rendering interface in the future. Or is one already in progress?   ( I
+have
+> nothing against OpenGL, its just that I have experience in d3d that might
+be
+> of help, and Direct3D performs well on my system. )
+
+Yeah!!! It was in our external todo list. We wrote a list containing all
+things that
+the free software community could do on nel and the dx driver is on it! :)
+You 'only' have to rewrite the 3d layer1 ! ;)
+In fact, the 3d driver layer (layer1) isn't really fixed for now so you
+should wait the
+end this month before write a dx version because the API may change.
+
+>     This raises a question I've been pondering myself.  I've also recently
+> created MAX plugins for xclient, for exporting skeletal animated
+characters
+> from character studio.  Do you (or anyone) know offhand if the sources to
+> these are distributable? Or does the sdk licensing prohibit it?  I wasn't
+> able to resolve this from the documention included.  I know that the sdk
+> itself isn't distributable, but I had hoped that derivative works were
+> o.k...
+
+I'm not able to answer, perhaps our 3d code lead could answer this.
+
+Best regards,
+
+Vianney Lecroart
+---
+lead programmer / nevrax.com
+icq#: 6870415
+homepage: http://ace.planet-d.net
+www.geek.com: GCS/E d- s+++: a-- C+++$ UL++ P- L+++>+$ E+>- W++ N+ o? K-
+w++$ O- M- V- PS- PE? Y PGP t 5? X+ R- tv++ b- DI D+ G e++ h+ r-- y?
+
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000027.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000027.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..314aebae --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000027.html @@ -0,0 +1,59 @@ + + + + [Nel] my last email :) + + + + + + +

[Nel] my last email :)

+ Dim Segebart + zager@teleaction.com
+ Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:36:31 +0100 +

+
+ +
> Best regards,
+>
+> Vianney Lecroart
+> ---
+> lead programmer / nevrax.com
+> homepage: http://ace.planet-d.net
+
+At least we know the name of game itself :))
+>From Vianney's home page - Ryzom game for Nevrax
+www.ryzom.com - very similar to www.transmeta.com in early days (but without
+hidden msg )))
+
+
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000028.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000028.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..507fbc84 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000028.html @@ -0,0 +1,81 @@ + + + + [Nel] Linux build + + + + + + +

[Nel] Linux build

+ Valignat Cedric + valignat@nevrax.com
+ Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:51:25 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hi Dim,
+
+Dim Segebart wrote:
+> 
+> I know what linux autoconf stuff isn't ready yet, but
+> anyway may I ask developers of NeL when we might be
+> able to put our hands on it ?
+
+Soon ... ;-)
+
+You should be able to get Nel to compile on Linux in the following days.
+
+
+> This is not a problem for me to create one by myself, by I'm
+> afraid it's not a very good idea, since I lack the knowledge of
+> internal dependencies and too lazy to reboot my PC in windows mode with
+> VC++ installed ;))
+
+I see very well what you mean ... :-)
+
+
+> Wish you good luck
+
+Thanks a lot.
+
+
+Cedric.
+
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000029.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000029.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..d12aef71 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000029.html @@ -0,0 +1,67 @@ + + + + [Nel] Flexibility + + + + + + +

[Nel] Flexibility

+ david.belius@chello.se + david.belius@chello.se
+ Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:59:58 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hi
+
+I'm wondering how general the nel library will be. Will it be a *MMORPG*
+engine or will it be more general so i can e.g. make a Massive Multiplay
+Online Real Time Stragegy game(MMORTS =)?
+Making a MMORTS warcraft type game is a dream of mine. =)
+
+/David
+
+PS.
+I just found out that Vianney was in the Outcast team! How cool isnt
+that?
+DS.
+
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000030.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000030.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..2adc1804 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000030.html @@ -0,0 +1,64 @@ + + + + [Nel] my last email :) + + + + + + +

[Nel] my last email :)

+ david.belius@chello.se + david.belius@chello.se
+ Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:05:08 +0100 +

+
+ +
> Yeah!!! It was in our external todo list. We wrote a list containing all
+> things that
+> the free software community could do on nel and the dx driver is on it! :)
+> You 'only' have to rewrite the 3d layer1 ! ;)
+> In fact, the 3d driver layer (layer1) isn't really fixed for now so you
+> should wait the
+> end this month before write a dx version because the API may change.
+
+Have you put this list online?
+It would be nice to get some orders so I could start contributing =)
+
+/David
+
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000031.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000031.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..ca099c02 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000031.html @@ -0,0 +1,75 @@ + + + + [Nel] Flexibility + + + + + + +

[Nel] Flexibility

+ Ludovic LIEVRE + ludovic.lievre@chaman.net
+ Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:10:49 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hi,
+
+<SNIP>
+
+> Making a MMORTS warcraft type game is a dream of mine. =)
+
+A game of this type is currently in development by Chaman Productions, a
+french company where I'm currently working.
+The game is called Forteresse (http://www.forteresse.com) and will be
+released in 2001.
+Sorry, we are not open source like Nel
+
+
+Ludo
+
+--
+Ludovic LIEVRE
+Chaman Productions
+mailto:ludo@chaman.net
+
+"Give me a museum and I'll fill it."
+Pablo Picasso (1881-1973)
+
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000032.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000032.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..34ad93ed --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000032.html @@ -0,0 +1,91 @@ + + + + [Nel] Flexibility + + + + + + +

[Nel] Flexibility

+ sameh chafik Pro + chafik@nevrax.com
+ Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:33:22 +0100 +

+
+ +
It smell shark!
+you don't feel the same smell?
+
+----- Original Message ----- 
+From: "Ludovic LIEVRE" <ludovic.lievre@chaman.net>
+To: <nel@nevrax.org>
+Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 5:10 PM
+Subject: RE: [Nel] Flexibility
+
+
+> 
+> Hi,
+> 
+> <SNIP>
+> 
+> > Making a MMORTS warcraft type game is a dream of mine. =)
+> 
+> A game of this type is currently in development by Chaman Productions, a
+> french company where I'm currently working.
+> The game is called Forteresse (http://www.forteresse.com) and will be
+> released in 2001.
+> Sorry, we are not open source like Nel
+> 
+> 
+> Ludo
+> 
+> --
+> Ludovic LIEVRE
+> Chaman Productions
+> mailto:ludo@chaman.net
+> 
+> "Give me a museum and I'll fill it."
+> Pablo Picasso (1881-1973)
+> 
+> _______________________________________________
+> Nel mailing list
+> Nel@nevrax.org
+> http://www.nevrax.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/nel
+
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000033.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000033.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..532b50da --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000033.html @@ -0,0 +1,64 @@ + + + + [Nel] Flexibility + + + + + + +

[Nel] Flexibility

+ david.belius@chello.se + david.belius@chello.se
+ Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:26:49 +0100 +

+
+ +
>
+> A game of this type is currently in development by Chaman Productions, a
+> french company where I'm currently working.
+> The game is called Forteresse (http://www.forteresse.com) and will be
+> released in 2001.
+> Sorry, we are not open source like Nel
+
+Please, please, please, please could you get me into the beta test =)
+I'd relly appriciate it.
+
+/David
+
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000034.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000034.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..a32a3293 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000034.html @@ -0,0 +1,62 @@ + + + + [Nel] Flexibility (oops) + + + + + + +

[Nel] Flexibility (oops)

+ david.belius@chello.se + david.belius@chello.se
+ Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:29:14 +0100 +

+
+ +
>
+> A game of this type is currently in development by Chaman Productions, a
+> french company where I'm currently working.
+> The game is called Forteresse (http://www.forteresse.com) and will be
+> released in 2001.
+> Sorry, we are not open source like Nel
+
+I didnt find that beta test joining page at first. =/
+Ignore my pathetic begging. ;)
+
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000035.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000035.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..0707a141 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000035.html @@ -0,0 +1,62 @@ + + + + [Nel] my last email :) + + + + + + +

[Nel] my last email :)

+ Dim Segebart + zager@teleaction.com
+ Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:43:16 +0100 +

+
+ +
Dim Segebart wrote:
+
+> > Best regards,
+> >
+> > Vianney Lecroart
+> > ---
+> > lead programmer / nevrax.com
+> > homepage: http://ace.planet-d.net
+>
+> At least we know the name of game itself :))
+
+He he ... :))
+I wouldn't insist on revealing  name of the game. I'm respecting
+commercial nature of this project. Without it NeL wasn't be born at all
+of was not available under GPL
+Hope, I didn't destroy you plans too mach ... ))
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000036.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000036.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..ab0498ec --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000036.html @@ -0,0 +1,64 @@ + + + + [Nel] Some thoughts about NeL + + + + + + +

[Nel] Some thoughts about NeL

+ Dim Segebart + zager@teleaction.com
+ Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:34:09 +0100 +

+
+ +
Ok, after browsing game projects which mentioned on
+http://ace.planet-d.net I come to conclusion
+what your new game will be really MASSIVELY multi-user with _very_
+detailed world(s) running in your
+universe. So, I just thinking about possibility of linking worlds, which
+is NeL based, similar to WWW -
+for example, when player passing the doors of some building on the
+street (or any other type of portal, analog of <a href> in HTML)
+he just enter the different world, which running on completely different
+hardware. I'm sure, you already have such
+portals in you project. But I'm afraid, this feature limited by the
+nameSpace of single NeL server, am I right ?
+I think what mechanism of linking between different worlds similar to
+WWW will be a good starting point for
+creating Internet2 (why not ? ;))
+What's about starting RFC  for WCP (World Communicating Protocol) ?
+
+
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000037.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000037.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..c0149090 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000037.html @@ -0,0 +1,62 @@ + + + + [Nel] Some thoughts about NeL + + + + + + +

[Nel] Some thoughts about NeL

+ Dan Ellis + dan@isvara.net
+ Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:52:01 +0000 (GMT) +

+
+ +
On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, Dim Segebart wrote:
+
+> universe. So, I just thinking about possibility of linking worlds, which
+> is NeL based, similar to WWW -
+> for example, when player passing the doors of some building on the
+> street (or any other type of portal, analog of <a href> in HTML)
+> he just enter the different world, which running on completely different
+> hardware. I'm sure, you already have such
+> portals in you project. But I'm afraid, this feature limited by the
+> nameSpace of single NeL server, am I right ?
+
+This is something the Afterscape Project will allow. It will be a very
+distributed universe that will allow delegation of zones to other servers.
+
+-- 
+Dan Ellis <dan@isvara.net>
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000038.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000038.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..7b9555ab --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000038.html @@ -0,0 +1,87 @@ + + + + [Nel] Some thoughts about NeL + + + + + + +

[Nel] Some thoughts about NeL

+ Thierry Mallard + thierry@mallard.com
+ Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:20:26 +0100 +

+
+ +
--PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9
+Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
+Content-Disposition: inline
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+
+On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:34:09PM +0100, Dim Segebart wrote:
+> [...] So, I just thinking about possibility of linking worlds, which
+> is NeL based, similar to WWW -
+
+This is something I though about in the Genesis project (yes I know,
+not very original name ;-) a few years ago. The problems we found
+were the consistency of the global universe, and the trust we could
+have to any server. For example : who managed the characters ? who
+can we trust for them ? There can be a time line synchronisation problem
+too, although that seemed less important...=20
+
+But definitly that could be a good idea to implement now ;-)
+
+
+	Shaman
+
+--=20
+Thierry Mallard              |             =20
+GnuPG key on wwwkeys.pgp.net |
+key 0xA3D021CB               |
+http://thierry.mallard.com   |    =20
+
+--PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9
+Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
+Content-Disposition: inline
+
+-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
+Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux)
+Comment: Pour information voir http://www.gnupg.org
+
+iEYEARECAAYFAjoSVVoACgkQGBtCB6PQIcvBigCgxq5rFlp3v+hdSzp3pw+nFgWF
+LZ0AoJOg37O2L9uTxXISsGf+E8XsZIn+
+=RzT/
+-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
+
+--PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9--
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000039.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000039.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..f76ffc30 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000039.html @@ -0,0 +1,73 @@ + + + + [Nel] Some thoughts about NeL + + + + + + +

[Nel] Some thoughts about NeL

+ Vincent Archer + archer@nevrax.com
+ Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:27:27 +0100 +

+
+ +
According to Thierry Mallard:
+> This is something I though about in the Genesis project (yes I know,
+> not very original name ;-) a few years ago. The problems we found
+> were the consistency of the global universe, and the trust we could
+> have to any server. For example : who managed the characters ? who
+> can we trust for them ? There can be a time line synchronisation problem
+> too, although that seemed less important... 
+
+In a very different world (and a closed system implementation), it's also
+something Bioware's NeverWinterNights wants to achieve. Their model allows
+servers (what they call modules, which is in fact a process running a
+specific area - but you can have multiples instances concurrently running
+on the same CPU) to link to each other.
+
+Of course, their model is simpler: all servers are guaranteed to run the
+same software (it autoupdates over the Internet), the character formats are
+well defined, and the characters are ultimately stored on a central database
+(the NWN Vault) who enforces "plausibility" on the characters (a level 1
+cannot get to level 6 and 70,000 XP points in an hour of playtime; a level 3
+character cannot have a plate+2, a cloak of displacement and boots of speed,
+and so on).
+
+And they do not want to inforce any universe continuity: each server admin
+has to do it, by allowing other modules to link to yours or not.
+-- 
+Vincent Archer                                         Email: archer@nevrax.com
+
+Nevrax France.                              Off on the yellow brick road we go!
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000040.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000040.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..2d2d9e3d --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000040.html @@ -0,0 +1,118 @@ + + + + [Nel] Ok, some food for your toughts + + + + + + +

[Nel] Ok, some food for your toughts

+ Vincent Archer + archer@nevrax.com
+ Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:12:16 +0100 +

+
+ +
One thing from previous questions that wasn't much developped upon.
+
+Networking.
+
+The original question was "do you use TCP or UDP for networking". My
+initial impulse was to reply "we use RDP, of course" (for those who do not
+know what RDP is, check /etc/protocols, number 27). But alas, Vianney beat
+me to the answer, so I have to be truthful.
+
+The question is: what do you use networking for, and why does the question
+on the use of TCP vs the use of UDP arises?
+
+Because, in most protocols design, this question never arises: one is clearly
+superior to the other. Why is that the question stands for a MMOG?
+
+If you look at the information elements that have to be transmitted from a
+client to the server and back, you see that they can be somehow separated
+across two different categories:
+
+1) Long-lived elements of information
+and
+2) Short-lived elements of information
+
+You may also separate on a different axis
+
+1) Uncorrectable elements of information
+and
+2) Correctable elements of information
+
+Uncorrectable elements of information are elements whose omission render the
+game state incompatible between client and server and require the transmission
+of said element, while correctable information can be overriden by a different
+game element.
+
+A few examples:
+
+- NPC X is dead: this is a long-lived/uncorrectable element
+- critter C has N hp: this is a long-lived/correctable element
+- critter C is at X/Y/Z facing direction D: this is short-lived/correctable
+- I am casting spell C: this is a long-lived/uncorrectable element
+
+Note that I can't find an example of short-lived, yet uncorrectable element.
+Any ideas?
+
+What do you face here? You face very different information elements. Some
+MUST be there for the world to make sense. So you have to guarantee their
+transmission: TCP makes sense. On the other hand, you have some that are
+quickly obsolete, and do not matter when lost. For them the whole TCP
+retransmission/guarantee of delivery is useless and a waste of ressources.
+
+So how do you design your protocol. You can take the short, easy route:
+use TCP (and lose performance for your position updates - which are by far
+the most numerous elements you get). You can take the long, hard route:
+use UDP (and code redundancy for the elements you need to guarantee
+transmission of, putting some badly made subset of TCP in it).
+
+Or you can take the smart route: use two protocol paths, one which carries
+the correctable elements over UDP (since you don't care if you lose a % of
+them), and one which carries the critical ones over TCP (which provides you
+the service guarantee you need).
+
+One of the minor advantages of the dual-protocol path is that it allows you to
+bypass firewalls that refuse to forward UDP: you fold back the UDP protocol
+path into TCP. You start losing performance, but at least, you do have a
+way of passing thru (don't forget to make your UDP packet protocols
+compatible with TCP streaming).
+
+-- 
+Vincent Archer                                         Email: archer@nevrax.com
+
+Nevrax France.                              Off on the yellow brick road we go!
+
+
+ + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000041.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000041.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..f77c77a7 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000041.html @@ -0,0 +1,94 @@ + + + + [Nel] Ok, some food for your toughts + + + + + + +

[Nel] Ok, some food for your toughts

+ Sal + sferro@wojo.com
+ Thu, 16 Nov 2000 12:32:09 -0500 +

+
+ +
> You can take the long, hard route:
+> use UDP (and code redundancy for the elements you need to guarantee
+> transmission of, putting some badly made subset of TCP in it).
+
+    I find it easier to put some simple checking into UDP than to manage two
+sets of sockets for each client, one TCP and one UDP.  Also the important
+data that needs reliable transmission is usually rare.... like you said,
+when someone casts a spell... and maybe chat text.  Most data in a networked
+game is usually skippable.   I think this is why most games use simple UDP,
+because of simplicity of implementation, and because there is so little data
+that needs to be sent reliable, a less-than-efficient reliable stream is
+o.k.   The strength in TCP/IP comes mostly when sending large amounts of
+data, since it makes compromises with packet acknowledgement over a period
+of time to gain its efficiency. But for short bursts of data typical for a
+MMOG it wouldn't perform significantly better.
+
+> Or you can take the smart route: use two protocol paths, one which carries
+> the correctable elements over UDP (since you don't care if you lose a % of
+> them), and one which carries the critical ones over TCP (which provides
+you
+> the service guarantee you need).
+
+    This is one possible route... not a bad one either.  There would not be
+any sort of performance loss in comparison to a pure-UDP implementation,
+since the operating system's TCP/IP implementation is probably more
+efficient than the custom UDP one.
+
+    I guess its a matter of preference, of the developers are willing to
+code something that manages two sets of sockets int the clients and servers,
+then go for it :-)
+
+> One of the minor advantages of the dual-protocol path is that it allows
+you to
+> bypass firewalls that refuse to forward UDP: you fold back the UDP
+protocol
+> path into TCP. You start losing performance, but at least, you do have a
+> way of passing thru (don't forget to make your UDP packet protocols
+> compatible with TCP streaming).
+
+    This is true.  Then again, a most of today's networked games use UDP so,
+the genre of people who would play a MMOG would probably have dealt with the
+firewall issues before, and would expect to fix their config to accomodate a
+new game.  Of course thats a slight generalization...
+
+Just adding some more food to the bowl ;-)
+-Sal
+
+
+
+ + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000042.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000042.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..a98bec57 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000042.html @@ -0,0 +1,50 @@ + + + + [Nel] Problems ? + + + + + + +

[Nel] Problems ?

+ Dim Segebart + zager@teleaction.com
+ Fri, 17 Nov 2000 10:12:02 +0100 +

+
+ +
What's wrong with this list ?
+I didn't receive my last post, which have been posted three days ago ...
+(((
+And also no posts from other members.
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000043.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000043.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..78f3158a --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000043.html @@ -0,0 +1,88 @@ + + + + [Nel] Ok, some food for your toughts + + + + + + +

[Nel] Ok, some food for your toughts

+ Vianney Lecroart + lecroart@nevrax.com
+ Fri, 17 Nov 2000 10:56:10 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hello,
+
+>     I find it easier to put some simple checking into UDP than to manage
+two
+> sets of sockets for each client, one TCP and one UDP.  Also the important
+> data that needs reliable transmission is usually rare.... like you said,
+> when someone casts a spell... and maybe chat text.  Most data in a
+networked
+> game is usually skippable.   I think this is why most games use simple
+UDP,
+> because of simplicity of implementation, and because there is so little
+data
+> that needs to be sent reliable, a less-than-efficient reliable stream is
+> o.k.   The strength in TCP/IP comes mostly when sending large amounts of
+> data, since it makes compromises with packet acknowledgement over a period
+> of time to gain its efficiency. But for short bursts of data typical for a
+> MMOG it wouldn't perform significantly better.
+
+
+Oh really? I have not the same opinion. I think that 90% of information on a
+game
+are important and must be received if you don't want to have inconsistency
+in the client side. the order of information are also very important. if you
+receive
+"you lost 5 hp" message before "you are attacked by XXX", it should be
+totally
+weird. I think that messages, in a role game, must be sorted and reliable
+for
+consistency and logical events.
+
+>     This is true.  Then again, a most of today's networked games use UDP
+so,
+
+be careful, there more than 1 category of network game. there are MMOG and
+counter strike like game (with few tens of players). for the second one udp
+is a
+surely useful but for MMOG, I'm not sure that the most of them are in UDP
+only.
+
+-vl
+
+
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000044.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000044.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..7f15c3c8 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000044.html @@ -0,0 +1,66 @@ + + + + [Nel] Problems ? + + + + + + +

[Nel] Problems ?

+ Vincent Archer + archer@nevrax.com
+ Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:27:39 +0100 +

+
+ +
According to Dim Segebart:
+> What's wrong with this list ?
+> I didn't receive my last post, which have been posted three days ago ...
+> (((
+> And also no posts from other members.
+
+That's a not a particularly weird one, because you're not listed as
+a member of the list. I've looked at the logs, and didn't find a record
+of your subscription confirmation.
+
+Please note that mailman doesn't let "third party subscriptions" for you;
+when you subscribe from the on-line form, mailman sends a message to the
+subscribed address asking for a confirmation, to avoid the syndrome of
+"let's register Mr X to 10,000 lists to flood his mailbox" (and the less
+bothersome 'let's put in a wrong and mispelled address'). Until you have
+properly replied to that confirmation message (keep the subject, and cut all
+the body), you will NOT receive messages from the list.
+
+-- 
+Vincent Archer                                         Email: archer@nevrax.com
+
+Nevrax France.                              Off on the yellow brick road we go!
+
+
+ + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000045.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000045.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..1d436aa6 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000045.html @@ -0,0 +1,98 @@ + + + + [Nel] Ok, some food for your toughts + + + + + + +

[Nel] Ok, some food for your toughts

+ Thierry Mallard + thierry@mallard.com
+ Sat, 18 Nov 2000 09:23:03 +0100 +

+
+ +
--n8g4imXOkfNTN/H1
+Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
+Content-Disposition: inline
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+
+On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 10:56:10AM +0100, Vianney Lecroart wrote:
+> [ Networking ]
+> I think that 90% of information on a game are important and must be recei=
+ved
+> if you don't want to have inconsistency in
+> the client side. the order of information are also very important. if you
+> receive
+> "you lost 5 hp" message before "you are attacked by XXX",=20
+
+Just two little remarks here :
+
+1/ the message should be more state-ish the action-ish here :
+   "you now have 37 HP" more than "you lost 5 HP" : one is skippable, the o=
+ther
+   is not.=20
+
+2/ the order is not necessary I think, but more the delay between them. The
+network speed may compensate the apparent disorder : if there's only 13 ms
+between the events you mentionned, the player may probably not notice. But =
+if
+that's 1.5 seconds, that's another problem ... ;-)
+
+
+	Shaman,=20
+	[ still learning to write english ... ;-) ]
+
+--=20
+Thierry Mallard              |             =20
+GnuPG key on wwwkeys.pgp.net |
+key 0xA3D021CB               |
+http://thierry.mallard.com   |    =20
+
+--n8g4imXOkfNTN/H1
+Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
+Content-Disposition: inline
+
+-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
+Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux)
+Comment: Pour information voir http://www.gnupg.org
+
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+=xo0+
+-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
+
+--n8g4imXOkfNTN/H1--
+
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000046.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000046.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..027edc28 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000046.html @@ -0,0 +1,188 @@ + + + + [Nel] Release Schedule and some questions ? + + + + + + +

[Nel] Release Schedule and some questions ?

+ Tom wright + thomas.wright1@ntlworld.com
+ Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:14:11 -0000 +

+
+ +
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
+
+------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C05232.FD4788A0
+Content-Type: text/plain;
+	charset="iso-8859-1"
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+
+Hi all,
+
+I am quite interested in what your trying to do, having played about =
+with the ideas for one of these for more years than I care to think =
+about :-)
+
+I have some general questions I would like to ask who ever is in the =
+know, feel free to ignore the 'sensitive' ones :-)
+
+1)  Are you going to add to the FAQ how to build  the stuff ? I am =
+currently running on Win2k with VC6 ( though I have a linux box also to =
+try this out on ) and it appears you have some paths coded to your =
+environment and not within the project file, e.g. whatever\nel\include =
+is missing.
+It would be useful in the FAQ if it contained a list of any dependencies =
+that the system also requires like the STL code. Yeah I know its in =
+there :-)  But it will save you answering the same question lots of time =
+for those that don't look at the src
+
+2) Care to release at least a rough schedule on the website, so that =
+people can see when bits and pieces of the jigsaw are going to be =
+released ?
+
+3) Congrats on releasing the src early, that means we can start reading =
+and learning now before we have 1000's of files to wade through.
+
+4) very interested to see talking about using python, having started =
+playing with it a few months ago, it has alot going for it.  Are you =
+going to embed it and interface it to the API's available so that people =
+can use it for developement within the system, or is it more an external =
+glue language ? Could be very useful for rapid prototyping AI and NPC =
+routines
+
+5) In your event dispatch system, how do you intent to get around the =
+problem of 'event blizzards' on a busy system ? Having seen this problem =
+in other systems that rely on events for inter-object comms, I am =
+interested on how you are going to get around the problem, e.g. =
+multi-threaded round robin dispatch, multiple dispatchers etc.
+
+Congrats on embrassing the open source idea for your server, and I look =
+forward to messing around with the system and the source.
+
+Regards
+
+Tom
+
+------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C05232.FD4788A0
+Content-Type: text/html;
+	charset="iso-8859-1"
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+
+<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
+<HTML><HEAD>
+<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
+http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
+<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3103.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
+<STYLE></STYLE>
+</HEAD>
+<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi all,</FONT></DIV>
+<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am quite interested in what your =
+trying to do,=20
+having played about with the ideas for one of these for more years than =
+I care=20
+to think about :-)</FONT></DIV>
+<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have some general questions I would =
+like to ask=20
+who ever is in the know, feel free to ignore the 'sensitive' ones=20
+:-)</FONT></DIV>
+<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1)&nbsp; Are you going to add to the =
+FAQ how to=20
+build&nbsp; the stuff ? I am currently running on Win2k with VC6 ( =
+though I have=20
+a linux box also to try this out on ) and it appears you have some paths =
+coded=20
+to your environment and not within the project file, e.g. =
+whatever\nel\include=20
+is missing.</FONT></DIV>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It would be useful in the FAQ if it =
+contained a=20
+list of any dependencies that the system also requires like the STL =
+code. Yeah I=20
+know its in there :-)&nbsp; But it will save you answering the same =
+question=20
+lots of time for those that don't look at the src</FONT></DIV>
+<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2) Care to release at least a rough =
+schedule on the=20
+website, so that people can see when bits and pieces of the jigsaw are =
+going to=20
+be released ?</FONT></DIV>
+<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>3) Congrats on releasing the src early, =
+that means=20
+we can start reading and learning now before we have 1000's of files to =
+wade=20
+through.</FONT></DIV>
+<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>4) very interested to see talking about =
+using=20
+python, having started playing with it a few months ago, it has alot =
+going for=20
+it.&nbsp; Are you going to embed it and interface it to the API's =
+available so=20
+that people can use it for developement within the system, or is it more =
+an=20
+external glue language ? Could be very useful for rapid prototyping AI =
+and NPC=20
+routines</FONT></DIV>
+<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>5) In your event dispatch system, how =
+do you intent=20
+to get around the problem of 'event blizzards' on a busy system ? Having =
+seen=20
+this problem in other systems that rely on events for inter-object =
+comms, I am=20
+interested on how you are going to get around the problem, e.g. =
+multi-threaded=20
+round robin dispatch, multiple dispatchers etc.</FONT></DIV>
+<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Congrats on embrassing the open source =
+idea for=20
+your server, and&nbsp;I look forward to messing around with the system =
+and the=20
+source.</FONT></DIV>
+<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards</FONT></DIV>
+<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
+
+------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C05232.FD4788A0--
+
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000047.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000047.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..ba1a9fdb --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000047.html @@ -0,0 +1,116 @@ + + + + [Nel] Release Schedule and some questions ? + + + + + + +

[Nel] Release Schedule and some questions ?

+ sameh chafik Pro + chafik@nevrax.com
+ Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:59:53 +0100 +

+
+ +
C'est un message de format MIME en plusieurs parties.
+
+------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C052D8.A0E268E0
+Content-Type: text/plain;
+	charset="iso-8859-1"
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+
+> 4) very interested to see talking about using python, having started =
+playing with it a few months ago, it has alot=20
+> going for it.  Are you going to embed it and interface it to the API's =
+available so that people can use it for=20
+> developement within the system, or is it more an external glue =
+language ? Could be very useful for rapid prototyping > AI and NPC =
+routines
+
+Hello,=20
+I'am Sameh Chafik and i am the lead AI programmer, I work with Pierre =
+Portier and Gabriel Robert. At present we don't use Python, i begun to =
+embed all class that we write but because we design a multi agents =
+system, we decideded to write an script interpret for our agents =
+platform. That dicision become because in open-source platform we did'nt =
+find an embed language for prototyping agents and python is'nt adapt for =
+doing that.
+
+
+------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C052D8.A0E268E0
+Content-Type: text/html;
+	charset="iso-8859-1"
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+
+<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
+<HTML><HEAD>
+<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
+charset=3Diso-8859-1">
+<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
+<STYLE></STYLE>
+</HEAD>
+<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; 4) very interested to see talking =
+about using=20
+python, having started playing with it a few months ago, it has alot=20
+</FONT></DIV>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; going for it.&nbsp; Are you going =
+to embed it=20
+and interface it to the API's available so that people can use it for=20
+</FONT></DIV>
+<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; developement within the system, or =
+is it more=20
+an external glue language ? Could be very useful for rapid prototyping =
+&gt; AI=20
+and NPC routines</FONT></DIV>
+<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
+<DIV>
+<DIV>Hello, </DIV>
+<DIV>I'am Sameh Chafik and i am the lead AI programmer, I work with =
+Pierre=20
+Portier and Gabriel Robert. At present we don't use Python, i begun to =
+embed all=20
+class that&nbsp;we write but because we design a multi agents system, we =
+
+decideded to write an script interpret for our agents platform. That =
+dicision=20
+become because in open-source platform we did'nt find an =
+embed&nbsp;language for=20
+prototyping agents and python is'nt adapt for doing that.</DIV>
+<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
+
+------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C052D8.A0E268E0--
+
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000048.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000048.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..ec552de9 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000048.html @@ -0,0 +1,69 @@ + + + + [Nel] Release Schedule and some questions ? + + + + + + +

[Nel] Release Schedule and some questions ?

+ Vianney Lecroart + lecroart@nevrax.com
+ Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:12:40 +0100 +

+
+ +
>1)  Are you going to add to the FAQ how to build  the stuff ? I am
+currently running on Win2k with VC6 ( though I have a linux box also to try
+this out >on ) and it appears you have some paths coded to your environment
+and not within the project file, e.g. whatever\nel\include is missing.
+>It would be useful in the FAQ if it contained a list of any dependencies
+that the system also requires like the STL code. Yeah I know its in there
+:-)  But it >will save you answering the same question lots of time for
+those that don't look at the src
+
+I'm working on the Visual C++ INSTALL file that explains everything you have
+to do to install and compile our project. It should be available in few
+days. (The unix one should come too in few days). But we don't plan to add
+it in the faq, we'll put it in the root directory.
+
+>3) Congrats on releasing the src early, that means we can start reading and
+learning now before we have 1000's of files to wade through.
+
+Thanks
+
+-Vianney Lecroart
+
+
+
+
+ + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000049.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000049.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..14e242db --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000049.html @@ -0,0 +1,92 @@ + + + + [Nel] Ok, some food for your toughts + + + + + + +

[Nel] Ok, some food for your toughts

+ Vincent Archer + archer@nevrax.com
+ Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:03:35 +0100 +

+
+ +
According to Thierry Mallard:
+> Just two little remarks here :
+> 
+> 1/ the message should be more state-ish the action-ish here :
+>    "you now have 37 HP" more than "you lost 5 HP" : one is skippable, the other
+>    is not. 
+
+As a general rule, change of state messages are always what I termed
+uncorrectable elements, while state information is, by definition,
+correctable (because you can resend the same state information at any
+time, "correcting" the error).
+
+Now, some information can be expressed in terms of either state or change
+of state. The choice of the type of communication between server and client
+must be individually chosen for most.
+
+An important point to keep in mind is that, for most state information
+which we deliver thru UDP, you are perfectly allowed to lose some
+information (since you expect it will be corrected in the near future),
+but for any specific state, you must guarantee that at least some of the
+updates are delivered properly.
+
+A good example is the "HP update" above. You may send "X now has 37 HP"
+"X now has 33 HP", "X now has 30 HP", but at some point, you need to ensure
+that the client (since we assume that the server is the one giving the state
+update) gets at least one update. So, most of these updates would be sent
+using UDP, but one out of N has to be sent using TCP to ensure guaranteed
+delivery (or, more typically, one every N seconds).
+
+> 2/ the order is not necessary I think, but more the delay between them. The
+> network speed may compensate the apparent disorder : if there's only 13 ms
+> between the events you mentionned, the player may probably not notice. But if
+> that's 1.5 seconds, that's another problem ... ;-)
+
+If you use two streams, you also need to guarantee an order between both.
+It wouldn't do to receive "X has 35 HP" thru TCP and "X has 38 HP" thru UDP.
+So all state update messages also need to carry out a timestamp so that,
+when your client parses the "X has 35 HP" message because your network stack
+delivered this first, he'll be able to ignore the "X has 38 HP" one which is
+now obsolete.
+
+Oh, and I do agree. Using pure TCP frees you from the hassles of dealing
+with all that... but you relinquish a lot of control of the lag, since you
+cannot control how and when the information is retransmitted.
+-- 
+Vincent Archer                                         Email: archer@nevrax.com
+
+Nevrax France.                              Off on the yellow brick road we go!
+
+
+ + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000050.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000050.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..e9862820 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000050.html @@ -0,0 +1,70 @@ + + + + [Nel] Broken link in www.nevrax.org + + + + + + +

[Nel] Broken link in www.nevrax.org

+ Roy Bryant + roybryant@SEVENtwentyfour.com
+ Tue, 21 Nov 2000 08:09:37 -0500 +

+
+ +
There appears to be a problem on this page of your site.
+
+    On your page http://www.nevrax.org/pipermail/nel/
+    when you click on your link to
+http://www.nevrax.org/pipermail/nel/2000-October/subject.html
+    you get the error: Not found
+
+As recommended by the Robot Guidelines, this email is to explain our robot's
+activities and to let you know about one of the broken links we encountered.
+LinkWalker does not store or publish the content of your pages, but rather
+uses the link information to update our map of the World Wide Web.
+
+Are these reports helpful? I'd love some feedback. If you prefer not to
+receive these occasional error notices please let me know.
+
+Roy Bryant
+
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
+ Roy Bryant, roybryant@seventwentyfour.com
+ President
+ SEVENtwentyfour Inc. ("Always watching the Web")
+ http://www.seventwentyfour.com
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
+
+
+ + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000051.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000051.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..3fd1c76d --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000051.html @@ -0,0 +1,77 @@ + + + + [Nel] Broken link in www.nevrax.org + + + + + + +

[Nel] Broken link in www.nevrax.org

+ Vincent Archer + archer@nevrax.com
+ Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:18:40 +0100 +

+
+ +
According to Roy Bryant:
+> There appears to be a problem on this page of your site.
+> 
+>     On your page http://www.nevrax.org/pipermail/nel/
+>     when you click on your link to
+> http://www.nevrax.org/pipermail/nel/2000-October/subject.html
+>     you get the error: Not found
+
+Well, there are no october archives, since these archives held only
+messages of the form "ok, ping, 1-2-3, anyone hear me?" and "do I
+receive this?".
+
+I tried to remove all traces of the october activity, but Mailman seem
+to have resurrected the links, even if the files themselves are not there,
+nor any information to recreate them.
+
+Mailman is, well, "lacking" (to put it nicely) in the documentation and
+man area.
+
+> Are these reports helpful? I'd love some feedback. If you prefer not to
+> receive these occasional error notices please let me know.
+
+Most of these really are errors. That specific one is "known", and I
+have yet to figure how to remove it - Mailman recreates the link when
+a new message is received.
+
+-- 
+Vincent Archer                                         Email: archer@nevrax.com
+
+Nevrax France.                              Off on the yellow brick road we go!
+
+
+ + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000052.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000052.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..806025f7 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000052.html @@ -0,0 +1,89 @@ + + + + [Nel] Some questions about network implementation + + + + + + +

[Nel] Some questions about network implementation

+ Dim Segebart + zager@teleaction.com
+ Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:12:32 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hello !
+Today I have found very interesting library from SGI
+(http://oss.sgi.com/projects/state-threads/)
+It's based on Netscape Portable Runtime library (NSPR)
+and amed on creating high perfomance network applications.
+Look at documentation
+(http://oss.sgi.com/projects/state-threads/docs/st.html)
+>From documentation:
+
+It is contained in 8 source files as opposed to more than 400, but
+provides all the
+functionality that is needed to write efficient IAs on UNIX-like
+platforms.
+
+                     NSPR       State Threads
+ Lines of code     ~150,000      ~3000
+
+ Dynamic library size
+(debug version)
+ IRIX               ~700 KB   ~60 KB
+ Linux             ~900 KB  ~70 KB
+
+State Threads is an application library which provides a foundation for
+writing Internet Applications. To summarize, it has the following
+advantages:
+
+     It allows the design of fast and highly scalable applications. An
+application will scale well with both load and number of CPUs.
+     It greatly simplifies application programming and debugging
+because, as a rule, no mutual exclusion locking is necessary and the
+entire application is free to use static variables and non-reentrant
+library functions.
+
+The library's main limitation:
+     All I/O operations on sockets must use the State Thread library's
+I/O functions because only those functions perform thread scheduling and
+prevent the application's
+     processes from blocking.
+
+
+I'm just wonder, what is the implimenantion design of NeL server-side
+according to the above document ?
+
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000053.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000053.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..7dad9869 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000053.html @@ -0,0 +1,68 @@ + + + + [Nel] Some questions about network implementation + + + + + + +

[Nel] Some questions about network implementation

+ Olivier Cado + cado@nevrax.com
+ Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:54:34 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hello everybody !
+
+Dim Segebart wrote:
+> Today I have found very interesting library from SGI
+> (http://oss.sgi.com/projects/state-threads/)
+>
+> I'm just wonder, what is the implimenantion design of NeL server-side
+> according to the above document ?
+
+During the pre-production we studied various libraries, from the
+smallest to the biggest (such as ACE,
+http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/ACE.html ). We didn't find the one of
+our dreams :-)
+
+At the moment we have implemented a simple networking system to work
+with our prototype that is coming soon.
+
+Thank you for your suggestion. We will study this library in detail.
+
+Regards,
+Olivier
+-- 
+Olivier Cado    ICQ: 67756413
+NEVRAX France   http://www.nevrax.com - http://www.nevrax.org
+
+
+ + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000054.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000054.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..a7f281ed --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000054.html @@ -0,0 +1,66 @@ + + + + [Nel] GNU/Linux compilation + + + + + + +

[Nel] GNU/Linux compilation

+ Valignat Cedric + valignat@nevrax.com
+ Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:19:35 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hello,
+
+The Nevrax team is please to announce, that there is some improvement on
+the GNU/Linux compilation :-)
+
+Just checkout the source files, read the INSTALL file and follow the
+instructions, it should be enougth ... i hope :o)
+
+There is still a lot of things to do or/and improve.
+
+That's the first time that i'm playing around with automake / autoconf so
+you migth find (and you will) some ugly things. Be nice with us ... any
+suggestion will be welcome :-)
+
+
+Have fun and a nice week-end ...
+
+
+The Nevrax team.
+
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000055.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000055.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..4274065b --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000055.html @@ -0,0 +1,54 @@ + + + + [Nel] error in CVS? + + + + + + +

[Nel] error in CVS?

+ Stefan Nilsen + stefan.nilsen@telia.com
+ Fri, 24 Nov 2000 22:18:06 +0100 +

+
+ +
I get this error when updating the files from the CVS repository. It looks 
+lika a damaged CVS repository.
+
+cvs [server aborted]: unable to parse 
+/home/cvsroot/code/nel/src/net/base_socket.cpp,v; `state' not in the expected 
+place
+
+
+ + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000056.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000056.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..ea4c3e9d --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000056.html @@ -0,0 +1,57 @@ + + + + [Nel] error in CVS? + + + + + + +

[Nel] error in CVS?

+ Cedric Valignat + valignat@nevrax.com
+ Sat, 25 Nov 2000 02:16:05 +0100 +

+
+ +
Stefan Nilsen wrote:
+> I get this error when updating the files from the CVS repository. It looks 
+> lika a damaged CVS repository.
+>  [...]
+
+Ouch ... sorry.
+
+It's fixed.
+
+
+
+ + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000057.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000057.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..d4a2708f --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000057.html @@ -0,0 +1,86 @@ + + + + [Nel] [patch] configure issue on GNU/Linux + + + + + + +

[Nel] [patch] configure issue on GNU/Linux

+ David =?iso-8859-1?q?Mentr=E9?= + David.Mentre@irisa.fr
+ 28 Nov 2000 11:04:18 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hi all nelers,
+
+Issue:
+
+ With the current connfigure.in, the freetype availability test use cc
+ rather than c++ to make the test, resulting in test failure due to
+ unset include path.
+
+Solution:
+
+ Use c++ as the default compiler for TRY_COMPILE macros.
+
+Path:
+
+--- configure.in.old    Tue Nov 28 10:22:18 2000
++++ configure.in        Tue Nov 28 10:50:10 2000
+@@ -23,6 +23,7 @@
+ dnl Checks for programs.
+ 
+ AC_PROG_MAKE_SET
++AC_LANG_CPLUSPLUS
+ 
+ AC_PROG_CC
+ AC_PROG_CXX
+
+
+Comment:
+
+ With this patch, configures works properly. And compilation worked
+ until my quota was full. ;)
+
+
+Best regards,
+d.
+-- 
+ David.Mentre@irisa.fr -- http://www.irisa.fr/prive/dmentre/
+ Opinions expressed here are only mine.
+
+
+ + + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000058.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000058.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..54cc9a00 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000058.html @@ -0,0 +1,58 @@ + + + + [Nel] CVS checkin by email + + + + + + +

[Nel] CVS checkin by email

+ David =?iso-8859-1?q?Mentr=E9?= + David.Mentre@irisa.fr
+ 28 Nov 2000 11:05:27 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hi all,
+
+Is there any way to bi informed by email of each new CVS checkin ?
+
+Best regards,
+d.
+-- 
+ David.Mentre@irisa.fr -- http://www.irisa.fr/prive/dmentre/
+ Opinions expressed here are only mine.
+
+
+ + + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000059.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000059.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..7bc405b0 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000059.html @@ -0,0 +1,75 @@ + + + + [Nel] CVS checkin by email + + + + + + +

[Nel] CVS checkin by email

+ Vincent Archer + archer@nevrax.com
+ Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:50:58 +0100 +

+
+ +
According to David Mentré:
+> Hi all,
+> 
+> Is there any way to bi informed by email of each new CVS checkin ?
+
+Well, if you want to be spammed continuously, that might be possible.
+I'll put something in the crontab to notify you every day :)
+
+Realistically, since you get full access to the development CVS tree,
+there is something done about every day in one part or another of the
+library. We do not have anything like the cvsup of FreeBSD so that you
+automatically would fetch the latest version everytime, but you can
+set a cron job if you like to to a cvs update every day around 23:00
+GMT. That's when we do a full resynchronise of the various CVS mirrors
+(in practice, the sync starts at 22:00 GMT, but you never know how long
+rsync will take across the 3 machines involved).
+
+We will post announces when there is something relatively major commited
+(like the day you'll get your first pictures, or like we did when the
+ compilation stuff on Linux boxes started working). Usually, we also do
+a manual resync at that time.
+
+-- 
+Vincent Archer                                         Email: archer@nevrax.com
+
+Nevrax France.                              Off on the yellow brick road we go!
+
+
+ + + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000060.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000060.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..668fe9b8 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000060.html @@ -0,0 +1,66 @@ + + + + [Nel] GNU/Linux compilation + + + + + + +

[Nel] GNU/Linux compilation

+ David =?iso-8859-1?q?Mentr=E9?= + David.Mentre@irisa.fr
+ 28 Nov 2000 12:35:20 +0100 +

+
+ +
Valignat Cedric <valignat@nevrax.com> writes:
+
+> Just checkout the source files, read the INSTALL file and follow the
+> instructions, it should be enougth ... i hope :o)
+
+Yes. I can confirm it compiles on a fairly standard Debian 2.2 x86
+machine. 
+
+> There is still a lot of things to do or/and improve.
+
+Yes. Like a configure for the client and the server to start playing
+with some executable. Right now, I don't know what to do with the 63
+megs of nel library. :)
+
+BTW, maybe should the configure script be in the code/ directory in
+order to setup nel, the client and the server?
+
+d.
+-- 
+ David.Mentre@irisa.fr -- http://www.irisa.fr/prive/dmentre/
+ Opinions expressed here are only mine.
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000061.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000061.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..40a9555f --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000061.html @@ -0,0 +1,61 @@ + + + + [Nel] GNU/Linux compilation + + + + + + +

[Nel] GNU/Linux compilation

+ Vincent Archer + archer@nevrax.com
+ Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:29:03 +0100 +

+
+ +
According to David Mentré:
+> BTW, maybe should the configure script be in the code/ directory in
+> order to setup nel, the client and the server?
+
+Well, yes and no. We'd like to keep the three (or at least two, NeL plus
+the client/server) separate or semi-separate entities, so that you can
+entirely replace client and server while keeping NeL.
+
+At some time, there will probably be an overall configure script, but that
+one will merely check the various parts, then call the 3 sub-directories
+configures with its what it just found.
+
+-- 
+Vincent Archer                                         Email: archer@nevrax.com
+
+Nevrax France.                              Off on the yellow brick road we go!
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000062.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000062.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..ff25edec --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000062.html @@ -0,0 +1,61 @@ + + + + [Nel] [patch] configure issue on GNU/Linux + + + + + + +

[Nel] [patch] configure issue on GNU/Linux

+ Valignat Cedric + valignat@nevrax.com
+ Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:40:05 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hi David,
+
+David Mentré wrote:
+> 
+> Issue:
+> 
+>  With the current connfigure.in, the freetype availability test use cc
+>  rather than c++ to make the test, resulting in test failure due to
+>  unset include path.
+> [...]
+
+
+We just made the changes in CVS.
+
+Thanks for your help ... :-)
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000063.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000063.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..f1ad36aa --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000063.html @@ -0,0 +1,68 @@ + + + + [Nel] GNU/Linux compilation + + + + + + +

[Nel] GNU/Linux compilation

+ Valignat Cedric + valignat@nevrax.com
+ Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:02:58 +0100 +

+
+ +
David Mentré wrote:
+> 
+> Yes. I can confirm it compiles on a fairly standard Debian 2.2 x86
+> machine. 
+
+Cool ... :-)
+
+> Yes. Like a configure for the client and the server to start playing
+> with some executable. Right now, I don't know what to do with the 63
+> megs of nel library. :)
+
+hehe :-)
+
+At the moment, there is nothing really usable for the client, and the
+GNU/linux OpenGL driver has to be written ...
+
+For the server part, we have few things running and the GNU/Linux configure
+setup will be done soon ...
+
+So be patient ... :-)
+
+
+Bye.
+
+
+
+ + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000064.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000064.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..7a4937d5 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000064.html @@ -0,0 +1,74 @@ + + + + [Nel] pointers on documentation? + + + + + + +

[Nel] pointers on documentation?

+ David Mentre + David.Mentre@irisa.fr
+ 29 Nov 2000 12:55:21 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hi all,
+
+I've looked very briefly at source code. As I'm newbie to 3D and games
+areas, I've been unable to understand concepts as "Traversers", or what
+is exactly a Model, a Scene, etc.
+
+Has somebody a good pointer on some basic documentation (URL, book,
+paper) that details those concepts found in 3D and distributed games?
+
+For the nel guys, is there any "Global Architecture Overview" paper
+planned? I know about the white paper, but I would be more interested in
+how you see the architecture in place. For example, it would be nice to
+read a paper describing a typical interaction: "you setup object like
+this, with this server and this client; when game starts, at each time
+step, the client send this info to the server; to model a scene, you
+need at least this and that...". It needs not to be very precise, but
+fill the gap between the white papers and the source code.
+
+Of course, I would understand that such a paper would not be on top
+priority list. ;)
+
+Maybe when some usable server/client will be released on Linux platform,
+we could write an architecture description paper.
+
+
+d.
+-- 
+ David.Mentre@irisa.fr -- http://www.irisa.fr/prive/dmentre/
+ Opinions expressed here are only mine.
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000065.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000065.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..6ab4ca99 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000065.html @@ -0,0 +1,72 @@ + + + + [NOISE] Re: [Nel] pointers on documentation? + + + + + + +

[NOISE] Re: [Nel] pointers on documentation?

+ Nicolas Hognon + cblt@cblt.org
+ Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:16:32 +0100 +

+
+ +
> Has somebody a good pointer on some basic documentation (URL, book,
+> paper) that details those concepts found in 3D and distributed games?
+> 
+
+you can look at this book : 3D Game Engine Design
+by David H. Eberly
+or at this website : http://www.flipcode.com/
+
+> For the nel guys, is there any "Global Architecture Overview" paper
+> planned? I know about the white paper, but I would be more interested in
+> how you see the architecture in place. For example, it would be nice to
+> read a paper describing a typical interaction: "you setup object like
+> this, with this server and this client; when game starts, at each time
+> step, the client send this info to the server; to model a scene, you
+> need at least this and that...". It needs not to be very precise, but
+> fill the gap between the white papers and the source code.
+> 
+> Of course, I would understand that such a paper would not be on top
+> priority list. ;)
+> 
+> Maybe when some usable server/client will be released on Linux platform,
+> we could write an architecture description paper.
+> 
+> 
+> d.
+
+
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000066.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000066.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..a96a180c --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000066.html @@ -0,0 +1,58 @@ + + + + [Nel] Distributed server algo + + + + + + +

[Nel] Distributed server algo

+ david.belius@chello.se + david.belius@chello.se
+ Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:38:54 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hi,
+i was wondering how you will code the distributed server.
+What algo will you be using?
+Will each server handle a specific cube in object space?
+
+I would also like to know how general the engine will be.
+Will it be a _MMORPG_ engine or just a MMOG engine, so that it is 
+possible to make a MMORTS or something with the same engine?
+
+Regards,
+David
+
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000067.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000067.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..0bc5e9a7 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000067.html @@ -0,0 +1,106 @@ + + + + [Nel] pointers on documentation? + + + + + + +

[Nel] pointers on documentation?

+ Cyril Corvazier + corvazier@nevrax.com
+ Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:02:21 +0100 +

+
+ +
Hi David,
+
+We have started a kind of "NeL Programmer Guide". You can acces it from
+http://www.nevrax.org/docs/doxygen/nel/pages.html We have some topics there,
+but nothing about MOT (Model Observer Traversal) yet. The guide grow up with
+the
+code so stay tuned!
+
+For information, MOT is inspired by Java 3d architecture.
+
+Bye.
+
+Cyril Corvazier
+
+----- Original Message -----
+From: "David Mentre" <David.Mentre@irisa.fr>
+To: <nel@nevrax.org>
+Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 12:55 PM
+Subject: [Nel] pointers on documentation?
+
+
+> Hi all,
+>
+> I've looked very briefly at source code. As I'm newbie to 3D and games
+> areas, I've been unable to understand concepts as "Traversers", or what
+> is exactly a Model, a Scene, etc.
+>
+> Has somebody a good pointer on some basic documentation (URL, book,
+> paper) that details those concepts found in 3D and distributed games?
+>
+> For the nel guys, is there any "Global Architecture Overview" paper
+> planned? I know about the white paper, but I would be more interested in
+> how you see the architecture in place. For example, it would be nice to
+> read a paper describing a typical interaction: "you setup object like
+> this, with this server and this client; when game starts, at each time
+> step, the client send this info to the server; to model a scene, you
+> need at least this and that...". It needs not to be very precise, but
+> fill the gap between the white papers and the source code.
+>
+> Of course, I would understand that such a paper would not be on top
+> priority list. ;)
+>
+> Maybe when some usable server/client will be released on Linux platform,
+> we could write an architecture description paper.
+>
+>
+> d.
+> --
+>  David.Mentre@irisa.fr -- http://www.irisa.fr/prive/dmentre/
+>  Opinions expressed here are only mine.
+> _______________________________________________
+> Nel mailing list
+> Nel@nevrax.org
+> http://www.nevrax.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/nel
+
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000068.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000068.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..eb760e7f --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000068.html @@ -0,0 +1,481 @@ + + + +¤¸¤j¨ÊµØ±á°T¡GÄ­ÆC¤Ï¼u + + + + + + + + + + +
+ + + + + + + + + + +
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+ + + + + + + + + + + +
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+
+
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+
+ +

¬Q(1)¤é¤j½L¥H¸õªÅ¤è¦¡­«®À¡A¤@Á|¶^¯}5650ÂI¤Î5570ÂIªº¤ä¼µ¡AÁöµM¦¬½L¤´¦³22ÀɪѲ¼º¦°±¡A¦ý¬O«o¦³62®a¬O¥H¶^°±°µ¦¬¡A³oºØ±¡§Î¬O¦Û°ªÂI¦^ÀÉ¥H¨Ó©Ò­º¨£¡A½æÀ£³Ì±j¤jªº¤@¤Ñ¡AÅãµMÆ[±æªºÄw½X¯É¯É°±·l±þ¥X¡C¦b¬Q¤é¶^°±ªº62ÀɪѲ¼¤¤¡A¦³±Nªñ2/3¬O¹q¤lªÑ¡A¥]¬A¥x¿n¹q¡B§»¹q¡B­Zª¿µ¥­«¶q¯Å¹q¤lªÑ¡A³sª÷¿ÄªÑ»â¥ý¾ã²z³\¤[¡A¤]Ãø°k¨ü²o³sªº¤U³õ¡Cµu½u¶^³t¥[§Ö¡A¬O¥½¶^»°©³ªº¨«¶Õ¡FÁÙ¬O¥D¶^¬q¥[³t¡A¶·¥Î¤ß¨DÃÒ¡C¬ã§P¥½¶^¬q©Î¬O¥D¶^¬q³Ì¦³®Äªº¤èªk¤§¤@¡A´N¬OÆ[¹î¯Ê¤f¦^¸Éªºª¬ªp¡C­Y¬O¥½¶^»°©³ªº¨«¶Õ¡A¬°ºÜºÉ¯Ê¤f¡A¬OªÅ¤è¤O¶q³Ì«áªº´è¬ª¡C³q±`³£¯à¦bµu®É¶¡¤º¨³³t¦^¸É¡C¦Ü©ó¥D¶^¬qªº¯Ê¤f¡A¥Ñ©óÁͶխè­è§Î¦¨¡A¤j¦h¬°¤¤¶¡¯Ê¤f¡C¤@¯ë¦Ó¨¥¡A¤¤¶¡¯Ê¤f¬O«Ü¤Ö¦bµu´Á¤º¦^¸Éªº¡C©Ò¥H¡A¬Q¤é¦b5660-5584ÂIªº¸õªÅ¯Ê¤f¯à§_¦b3¤é¤º¦^¸É¬O¬Û·íÃöÁ䪺¡C¥u­n¯Ê¤f¯à°÷¦^¸É¡A¨º»ò©Ô¦^³£¥i«Ø¥ß¦hÀY³¡¦ì¡C¥t¥~¡A¬Q¤é´£¤Î¦^ÀÉ1/3©Î0.382­¿ªº¤ä¼µ¡A·íµM¬O¾Dáè¬ï¡C¥i¹w¨£ªº¤ä¼µ¤]¤U²¾¦Ü1/2ªº¦ì¸m¡A¬ù¦b5375ÂI¤W¤U¡A»P72¤é§¡½uªº5410ÂI¬O¬Û·í±µªñ¡A¦¹¤@¦ì¸mªº¤ä¼µ¤O¶q¤£¤p¡AÀ³¸Ó¤£·|¹³5575ÂIªºª¬ªp¡C¦Ü¤Ö¬Ý¦b¶^²`¤Ï¼uªº¨¤«×¡A¬O¦³¤Ï¼u¥i¥H¹w´Á¡C¤Ï¼uªº­«ÂIªÑÀ³¸Ó¬O¥H¦^Àɸû²`ªº¹q¤lªÑ¤Îª÷¿ÄªÑ¬°¥D¡C³o¨âÃþªÑ¬O³Ì¯àµo´§¼µ½L¥ô°Èªº¡C­Y¹q¤l¡Bª÷¿Ä¤Ï¼u¡A¶·¯d·N¤¤·§ÃD§÷ªº¤p«¬ªÑ¡A¦³¥i¯à¶X¶Ã²V¤ôºN³½¡C¾Þ§@¤W¡A¤¤·§ªÑª£§@º¦´T¤w¤j¡A¤£©y¦A°l°ª¡A¤ÏÀ³¦V¤W´î½X¡A¤´«ù¦³¹q¤l¡Bª÷¿ÄªÑªº³¡¦ì«h¥i¼È®ÉÄò©ê¡C

+

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¡E +¤­¬P¯Å«K·í¤@¦Ê¥i¶R +.. + +
+
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+
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+
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+
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+
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+
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+
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+
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+
+
+
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ + + + + +
+
+ +¡@µØµø¥x¥vÀ]¡E
+µØµø¤å¤Æ¤½¥q¡E
+µØµø°V½m¤¤¤ß¡E + +
+		 +
+ +¤¤µØ¹qµøªÑ¥÷¦³­­¤½¥q www.cts.com.tw ª©Åv©Ò¦³
+ 2000 CTS Inc. All Rights Reserved. Established 1997-01-03
+ 106 ¥x¥_¥«¥ú´_«n¸ô100¸¹ Tel: (02)2751-0321 µØµøªA°È«H½c +		 +
+ + ¡E¸`¥Ø¯d¨¥ªO
+ ¡EµØµøÁ`¸g²z«H½c
+ ¡E·s»D¥D¼½«H½c + +
+
+ + + + diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000069.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000069.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..f253987d --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000069.html @@ -0,0 +1,61 @@ + + + + [Nel] Status question + + + + + + +

[Nel] Status question

+ MIGUEL ANGEL BLANCH LARDIN + x5101920@fedro.ugr.es
+ Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:18:42 +0100 (MET) +

+
+ +
Hi,
+
+I am reading some of the emails publishing, and because of my prior 
+experience in MMORPG, I would like to know in what stage is the 
+overall project?
+
+Planning? Alpha? Beta?
+
+I have browse the CVS and is something running?
+
+
+Regards,
+Miguel
+
+BTW Have you ever though about reusing other GPL projects source?
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000070.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000070.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..eefd05c0 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000070.html @@ -0,0 +1,52 @@ + + + + [Nel] Distributed server algo + + + + + + +

[Nel] Distributed server algo

+ Stefan Nilsen + stefan.nilsen@telia.com
+ Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:02:52 +0100 +

+
+ +
On Wednesday 29 November 2000 15:38, david.belius@chello.se wrote:
+> I would also like to know how general the engine will be.
+> Will it be a _MMORPG_ engine or just a MMOG engine, so that it is
+> possible to make a MMORTS or something with the same engine?
+
+WDMMORTSM? (What does MMORTS mean?)
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000071.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000071.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..e37aa386 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000071.html @@ -0,0 +1,63 @@ + + + + [Nel] Distributed server algo + + + + + + +

[Nel] Distributed server algo

+ Nicolas Hognon + cblt@cblt.org
+ Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:10:24 +0100 +

+
+ +
massively multiplayer online real time strategy
+(game like stracraft but massively online)
+
+> 
+> WDMMORTSM? (What does MMORTS mean?)
+
+
+
+-- 
+Nicolas Hognon
+home : cblt@cblt.org         / www.cblt.org
+work : nicolash@virtools.com / www.virtools.com
+#ICQ : 36044443
+
+Enjoy the silence
+(DM)
+
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000072.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000072.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..58f6cc0a --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000072.html @@ -0,0 +1,94 @@ + + + + [Nel] Distributed server algo + + + + + + +

[Nel] Distributed server algo

+ Thierry Mallard + thierry@mallard.com
+ Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:50:38 +0100 +

+
+ +
--Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z
+Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
+Content-Disposition: inline
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+
+On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 03:38:54PM +0100, david.belius@chello.se wrote:
+> Hi,
+> i was wondering how you will code the distributed server.
+> What algo will you be using?
+
+Dunno if it could be related, but the word =AB distributed =BB made me flas=
+h ;-)
+I'm now trying to implement a STAGE server (see projet Worldforge[1]), with
+the help of Mickael Remond, using Erlang[2], a functionnal language which d=
+oes
+has nice features about distribution. Maybe that could be worth a look,
+although I'm still not sure an interpreted language is really usable for
+something like NeL or STAGE...=20
+
+	Best regards,
+
+		Shaman
+
+[1] http://www.worldforge.org
+[2] http://www.erlang.org =20
+    http://www.erlang-fr.org (under construction)
+
+--=20
+Thierry Mallard              |             =20
+GnuPG key on wwwkeys.pgp.net |
+key 0xA3D021CB               |
+http://thierry.mallard.com   |    =20
+
+--Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z
+Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
+Content-Disposition: inline
+
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+=AUVC
+-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
+
+--Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z--
+
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000073.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000073.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..3f993b80 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000073.html @@ -0,0 +1,83 @@ + + + + [offtopic] distributed scripting language (was: Re: [Nel] Distributed server algo) + + + + + + +

[offtopic] distributed scripting language (was: Re: [Nel] Distributed server algo)

+ David Mentre + David.Mentre@irisa.fr
+ 30 Nov 2000 08:59:54 +0100 +

+
+ +
Thierry Mallard <thierry@mallard.com> writes:
+
+> I'm now trying to implement a STAGE server (see projet Worldforge[1]),
+> with the help of Mickael Remond, using Erlang[2], a functionnal
+> language which does has nice features about distribution.
+
+You could also have a look at Objective Caml[1]. It is a functionnal
+language (ML style with type inference for those interested) but with
+modules and object oriented capabilities. It has not pre-build
+distributed facilities but toolkits have been built on it, like
+Ensemble[2].
+
+On Erlang, one thing to notice is that reliability is in charge of the
+programmer. But maybe your are involved in some other projects using
+Erlang. ;)
+
+>  Maybe that could be worth a look, although I'm still not sure an
+> interpreted language is really usable for something like NeL or
+> STAGE...
+
+OCaml can be compiled in both bytecode and native code for about any
+platform (from ARM to Alpha through x86 [2b]). And people have made
+hacks to dynamically load bytecode and native code into
+programs[3]. Also notice that bytecode is portable across platforms.
+
+Sorry if it is a bit of topic, but I could not resist for this blatant
+advertising. ;) And maybe NeL will have more that just Python support...
+
+Best regards,
+d.
+
+[1] http://caml.inria.fr/
+[2] http://www.cs.cornell.edu/Info/Projects/Ensemble/index.html
+[2b] http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/portability.html
+[3] http://caml.inria.fr/archives/200011/msg00180.html
+-- 
+ David.Mentre@irisa.fr -- http://www.irisa.fr/prive/dmentre/
+ Opinions expressed here are only mine.
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000074.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000074.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..68f89776 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/000074.html @@ -0,0 +1,68 @@ + + + + [Nel] Status question + + + + + + +

[Nel] Status question

+ Vincent Archer + archer@nevrax.com
+ Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:19:13 +0100 +

+
+ +
According to MIGUEL ANGEL BLANCH LARDIN:
+> I am reading some of the emails publishing, and because of my prior 
+> experience in MMORPG, I would like to know in what stage is the 
+> overall project?
+> 
+> Planning? Alpha? Beta?
+
+None of the above? :)
+
+The game itself is somewhere between planning and alpha. We are approaching
+the date of our first internal prototype, but we know what the game itself
+is about, how it will play (in terms of game), and how we are structuring
+the NeL platform and how it is used to develop the real game.
+
+> I have browse the CVS and is something running?
+
+Depend on what you call running. You do not have a 3D scene and interface
+available yet, for example, but you have several services for the building
+of the server part.
+
+-- 
+Vincent Archer                                         Email: archer@nevrax.com
+
+Nevrax France.                              Off on the yellow brick road we go!
+
+
+ + +
+

+ diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/author.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/author.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..a42fa7fb --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/author.html @@ -0,0 +1,118 @@ + + + + The Nel 2000-November Archive by Author + + + +

2000-November Archives by Author

+ +

Starting: Wed Nov 8 19:19:05 2000
+ Ending: Thu Nov 30 09:19:13 2000
+ Messages: 73

+

+

+ Last message date: + Thu Nov 30 09:19:13 2000
+ Archived on: Thu Nov 30 10:16:00 2000 +

+

+

+

+ This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.05 (Mailman edition). + + + diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/date.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/date.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..3514789e --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/date.html @@ -0,0 +1,118 @@ + + + + The Nel 2000-November Archive by Date + + + +

2000-November Archives by Date

+ +

Starting: Wed Nov 8 19:19:05 2000
+ Ending: Thu Nov 30 09:19:13 2000
+ Messages: 73

+

+

+ Last message date: + Thu Nov 30 09:19:13 2000
+ Archived on: Thu Nov 30 10:16:00 2000 +

+

+

+

+ This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.05 (Mailman edition). + + + diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/index.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/index.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..02ee5bff --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/index.html @@ -0,0 +1,251 @@ + + + + The Nel 2000-November Archive by Thread + + + +

2000-November Archives by Thread

+ +

Starting: Wed Nov 8 19:19:05 2000
+ Ending: Thu Nov 30 09:19:13 2000
+ Messages: 73

+

+

+ Last message date: + Thu Nov 30 09:19:13 2000
+ Archived on: Thu Nov 30 10:16:00 2000 +

+

+

+

+ This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.05 (Mailman edition). + + + diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/subject.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/subject.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..7d9ce067 --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/subject.html @@ -0,0 +1,118 @@ + + + + The Nel 2000-November Archive by Subject + + + +

2000-November Archives by Subject

+ +

Starting: Wed Nov 8 19:19:05 2000
+ Ending: Thu Nov 30 09:19:13 2000
+ Messages: 73

+

+

+ Last message date: + Thu Nov 30 09:19:13 2000
+ Archived on: Thu Nov 30 10:16:00 2000 +

+

+

+

+ This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.05 (Mailman edition). + + + diff --git a/pipermail/nel/2000-November/thread.html b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/thread.html new file mode 100644 index 00000000..02ee5bff --- /dev/null +++ b/pipermail/nel/2000-November/thread.html @@ -0,0 +1,251 @@ + + + + The Nel 2000-November Archive by Thread + + + +

2000-November Archives by Thread

+ +

Starting: Wed Nov 8 19:19:05 2000
+ Ending: Thu Nov 30 09:19:13 2000
+ Messages: 73

+

+

+ Last message date: + Thu Nov 30 09:19:13 2000
+ Archived on: Thu Nov 30 10:16:00 2000 +

+

+

+

+ This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.05 (Mailman edition). + + + -- cgit v1.2.1