Subject: [Nel] Greetings! And some questions / comments

From: "Sal" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:18:21 -0500

Hi,

First a little rant to explain my being here: :-)

    I am also a Worldforge developer, like Bryce.  Though not nearly as
famous ;-)   I stumbled upon Nevrax the other day and am very interested in
its development.  My goal a few years back was to help create a free,
massively multiplayer online RPG system, one that I could enjoy myself and
that others could build from to make their own persistant online worlds.
And a commercial effort such as Nevrax could be a powerful force in helping
to achieve such a goal.

    Most opensource projects that start up have caught my eye, the first
being the Ultima online emulator scene which  I was a part of for a long
time, coding admin tools, NPC ai, network code, etc. Whatever seemed the
most challenging task.   I got soon fed up with having to deal with the idea
that all the hard work might not even turn out to be legal, and all the
problems that OSI provided for the emu scene I didnt care for.  So I then
came across Worldforge, and that is where I am. Finally a totally free
opensource project that met, if not exceeded my own standards for an online
gaming system.

    So I took on the responsibility of developer XClient, a 3d client.  The
root of its homepage is here, if anyone's interested:
http://www.worldforge.org/website/clients/xclient/

    Some shots of its recent developments (a terrain engine) are here:
http://www.worldforge.org/images/screenshots/terrain1.jpg
http://www.worldforge.org/images/screenshots/terrain2.jpg
    (Its very early in development)

    Some old out of date client shots:
http://www.worldforge.org/website/clients/xclient/screenshots/

    And lastly, a goals paper that I've recently written to illustrate what
the goals are in XClient development.  This one I recommend reading above
the others.
http://www.worldforge.org/website/clients/xclient/developer/goals

    I've also created a Map editor (XEdit) a UDP networking library based
off of the GPLd quake code (XUDP) and a simple test server (XServer).  All
of this and XClient are in Worldforge cvs for those interested.  If there
are questions about any of these things, please ask!

    Anyhow, yes there is a point to all this.  It seems that a lot of
Worldforge's goals and development are in tandem with Nevrax's.  So,  I
thought it would be worth it to see  1) how compatible our projects are and
2) if we might be able to help each other out in any form, whether it be
artwork, code, or knowledge.  3) how much interest, if any, there is in
sharing efforts.

    So if I could ask a few questions.  I tried finding out some information
through the website, but some questions remain:

1)  I understand that Nel will be a library to create games, but is this
project also developing a specific game that uses the library?  If so what
details of it are known?  As far as ruleset... gameplay...

2)  What is the development strategy?  For example Worldforge will be
developing several smaller diverse games in succession (Acorn, Mason... etc.
etc.) until we reach the final goal, entitled 'BelchFire'.  Will you guys be
doing a similar thing?

3)  What features/goals are there for the 3d engine?  What's being targeted
(high end/low end hardware)?  What rendering APIs?  Software mode?

4)  I get this question a lot :-)  Why develop a 3d engine from scratch? Why
not use/build from an existing engine, such as Crystal Space?

5)  What are the capabilities of the current codebase?

6)  Is development open to outside influence? Or are you following an
internal-only plan, and just opensourcing the results?

7)  Was there knowledge of Worldforge when this project was started?  And if
so,  why was it deemed necessary to start another,  independant effort with
the same goals?

8)  Would it be possible to get a brief description of what Nevrax will use
in the following areas:
                - Protocol (UDP? TCP/IP?)
                - Mapfile format (Custom? XML? Binary? Database-Driven?)
                - Mapfile editors (What existing tools will be used, if
any?)
                - Model format(s)
                - Texture format(s)

9)  How the heck do you guys manage to pay a full development team off of
free software? :-)

    Thats about all I have for now.  I'm sure more will come up in the
future.  You might want to put a few of those in the FAQ, I've noticed its
in need of some fulfilling... and other people may have similair questions.

    Anyhow, thanks in advance, and Congratulations and Good Luck in your
efforts.  Its a challenging and rewarding goal that we are working towards.
I look forward to exchanging thoughts and ideas in the near future!

- Sal
[email-masked]

---

From: Olivier Lejade <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:58:30 +0100

Hi Sal,

My name is Olivier Lejade, I am Nevrax's CEO. I won't be intervening too 
much on this list since we really would like to keep things technically 
oriented, but since there seems to be so a lot of questions, I figured it 
would be a good idea to answer some of them here so that they can go in the 
FAQ.
I'll leave the technically oriented ones to the Code Team though.

At 04:18 PM 11/11/00 -0500, you wrote:
>famous ;-)

Or so you think... ;)

>And a commercial effort such as Nevrax could be a powerful force in helping

Thanks for the attention.
We hope and believe so too.

>So I then

Yes, WorldForge is a very impressive project with a very, very large scope. 
We are all admirative of your capacity to handle such a large and diverse 
community. Managing a team of artists over the internet is especially 
daunting and WF has accomplished an incredible feat in this area.
As Bryce kindly reminded me, code is cheap compared to Art...

Here at Nevrax, we do not intend to have such a large range of activity. We 
are concentrating on a 3D client (no 2D, text, etc) and we are doing all 
the artwork/game design internally.
Nevrax.org will focus on fostering a "technical" community.

>1) how compatible our projects are

I'll let the coders answer on the technical aspect. However, on a more 
philosophical point of vue, I'd say our project are very compatible, 
siblings really, since they are both GPL.

>project also developing a specific game that uses the library?

Yes. we are currently developing a yet unannounced commercial MMORPG.

>If so what

At this time, I'm sorry to say we cannot disclose any information 
concerning game design / artwork. However things are bound to change as we 
go along, and some information will start trickling out in the coming months.

>etc.) until we reach the final goal, entitled 'BelchFire'.  Will you guys be

Not in the sense of WF (i.e lots of intermediary games). We are working on 
a single game. However, we do have a number of milestones. Also by the end 
of the year, we will be disclosing a "sample world" under an open content 
license for the community to kick around and have fun with. But this will 
have nothing to do with our final game.

>not use/build from an existing engine, such as Crystal Space?

We checked out CS of course as well as many others, and while it is a very 
nice engine, it did not seem to fit our particular needs.

>internal-only plan, and just opensourcing the results?

Well, we are following an internal plan and Freeing the resulting software, 
however we are very open to outside influence on technical aspects. And 
while we concentrate on our priorities, we will integrate any worthwhile 
functionnality.

On the game content side though, we are keeping things to ourselves for now.
Expect to be really, really suprised though... :)

>so,  why was it deemed necessary to start another,  independant effort with

Yes, we knew of WF (actually, since the time it was called Altima !).
We took some time to consider joining the effort, however we felt there was 
a number of reasons for not doing so. I'll give you some of them :

- We wanted to keep a tight focus on the game we are doing and did not want 
to be hindered in political struggles to get the code where we needed. We 
felt the WF community might ressent us steering in directions that they 
would not care for. We have a tight schedule : we want the game out in 2002.
Which means we could'nt spare to much time arguing about it.

- We have different goals : we are a commercial entity. We don't have the 
educational/hobbyist approach of WF. Nevrax has a complete team of seasoned 
professionals not only at the programming level, but also on the design / 
3D artwork / concept side working every day towards one goal : getting the 
game out.

- We have a highly original world which poses a great number of 
constraints. We felt we would be in a better position to adress them by 
leading our own effort.

That said, I must emphasize that we do not see ourselves as "competing" 
with WF. We are simply two different projects, taking two different 
approach at building a Free Software system for MMORPGs. Diversity is A 
Good Thing.
I wish WF will succeed and I hope there will be as much cooperation between 
the two projects as possible.

>9)  How the heck do you guys manage to pay a full development team off of

Ah ha ! :)

Free Software doesn't mean free content or free service.
While our software is Free, we retain property of our game data. And to 
access our servers in order to play our game, users will be asked to pay a 
monthly fee just like with the other commercial games.

Bottom line is : Free Software and commercial MMORPGs are a perfect match. 
And we believe we have everything to gain and nothing to loose by opening 
our source code.

I hope this clarifies things a little even though I'm sure it will raise 
even more questions !

Thanks for your encouragments,

Olivier

---

From: "Sal" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 10:34:56 -0500

> I'll leave the technically oriented ones to the Code Team though.

    Thank you for taking the time to respond Olivier, this clears up a lot
of questions!

> Managing a team of artists over the internet is especially

    I very much agree here.  In my experience I've discovered that media is
very hard to come by.  Talented artists don't like to work for free, and who
can blame them, a lot of the industry's tools are expensive and take a lot
of effort and time to learn.  I think this is one of the biggest obstacles
in free game software development, the lack of good, free media.  If Nevrax
is able to help out in this area, the opensource commmunity, Worldforge
included, would be very grateful...

[ ... ]
> while we concentrate on our priorities, we will integrate any worthwhile
[ ... ]

    I understand your intentions.  With openness in development comes
conflict in views on many issues.  As a project under a tight schedule,
resolving all issues in the open might not be the most efficient approach
timewise.

    If there still is any desire to collaborate on things such as client
engine design, I would be happy to.  If XClient and the Nel client could be
made more compatible in any way, I think it would be worth the effort.  If
similairity in protocol could be obtained, then our software could
communicate with each other.  Likewise, if rendering architecture was
similair, we could collaborate on, and/or share pieces of code for the game
engines.  Either way I think it could mean saving work and time for the both
of us...

    On the other hand, collaborating would logically take some effort, which
I understand Nevrax may or may not have the time for.  It still might be
worth considering, at any rate.

> And we believe we have everything to gain and nothing to loose by opening

    Here I very much agree, also!

> I hope this clarifies things a little even though I'm sure it will raise

    Thanks again!  And I await the answers to the other, more technical
questions. ;-)

- Sal

---

From: "Vianney Lecroart" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:37:49 +0100

Hello sal!

> (high end/low end hardware)?  What rendering APIs?  Software mode?

you can take a look on the nel whitepaper, it explains (briefly) all
features
of the 3d engine (/docs/doxygen/nel/general.html)
that we plan to develop.

> 5)  What are the capabilities of the current codebase?

hum... good question :-) today, the code is not able to do lot of things but
it'll change in few weeks. the misc component contains lot of really cool
tools like serializable system, input events system, internationalization,
math classes, etc...
there's only the skeleton of the 3d engine but, low level layers start to
work
and it'll display polygons in few days :) the low interface font manager is
ready
to display text and we work hardly on tools for the graphics team (but
theses
tools are still private cause of 3ds max sdk).
for the network components, all communication layers are available.
the service based class is ready too and will be extented in the futur.
few services run too, so you can compile our first service executables :)
we'll work on a "client" exectuable to explains how to use nel and
perhaps, display someting :)

> internal-only plan, and just opensourcing the results?

We Want You! :-) of course we hope to work with the free software community.

> 8)  Would it be possible to get a brief description of what Nevrax will
use

is the whitepaper not enough? ok , we ll add some stuffs on it :)

>                 - Protocol (UDP? TCP/IP?)

for now, we only manage TCP/IP and plan to use UDP only the visual effect
like
smooth dead reckoning (the standard dead reckoning will be in TCP/IP for
some
cheating reasons)

>                 - Mapfile format (Custom? XML? Binary? Database-Driven?)

we use a generic streamable and serializable system so we don't have any
file format :-)
it's a really powerful system!!! and so easy to manage!

>                 - Mapfile editors (What existing tools will be used, if

we use 3ds max only, and we create plugins for our needs.

>                 - Model format(s)

same as mapfile :)

>                 - Texture format(s)

we use .dds format for pre-compressed texture format (DXTC*) and
pre-computed mimap.
we also use .tga for normal texture/image :-)

> 9)  How the heck do you guys manage to pay a full development team off of

we are paid, i can confirm :-)

> in need of some fulfilling... and other people may have similair
questions.

yes, we'll add these questions in the FAQ!

> I look forward to exchanging thoughts and ideas in the near future!

thanks

Vianney Lecroart
---
lead programmer / nevrax.com
icq#: 6870415
homepage: http://ace.planet-d.net
www.geek.com: GCS/E d- s+++: a-- C+++$ UL++ P- L+++>+$ E+>- W++ N+ o? K-
w++$ O- M- V- PS- PE? Y PGP t 5? X+ R- tv++ b- DI D+ G e++ h+ r-- y?

---

From: "Sal" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 16:40:01 -0500

Hello Vianney,  I'm glad to have made acquaintance with the lead programmer
of this amazing effort!

> of the 3d engine (/docs/doxygen/nel/general.html)

    Thanks for your time in answering my questions.  I took the time the
other day to read all the documentation, and look at the source code.  I
must say, it is well structured, easy to understand, and well commented.
And its good to see that the code is being documented well at such an early
stage. Good work, and I hope it keeps it up like this!

> perhaps, display someting :)

    A client executable would be nice, I'm interested in playing with all
this neat stuff!  This would logically be needed for testing and developing
new features, also.

    Btw, I noticed that the OpenGL renderer is well abstracted, and it seems
to me that a Direct3D renderer would not be very hard to create.
Coincidentally I'm working on a new DirectX 8/d3d renderer for xclient. If
theres interest I could help create a Direct3D implementation of your
rendering interface in the future. Or is one already in progress?   ( I have
nothing against OpenGL, its just that I have experience in d3d that might be
of help, and Direct3D performs well on my system. )

> [...] and we work hardly on tools for the graphics team (but
> theses

    This raises a question I've been pondering myself.  I've also recently
created MAX plugins for xclient, for exporting skeletal animated characters
from character studio.  Do you (or anyone) know offhand if the sources to
these are distributable? Or does the sdk licensing prohibit it?  I wasn't
able to resolve this from the documention included.  I know that the sdk
itself isn't distributable, but I had hoped that derivative works were
o.k...

> We Want You! :-) of course we hope to work with the free software
community.

    Thats great to hear.  I (and I'm sure many others) would like to see
this operation become a success, and would like to help it do so.  As is
evident with the existance of projects like Worldforge, one can see that a
GPLish mmorpg system is very desired by many people.  I also think it would
be cool if Nevrax showed the world that Free Software works, even in the
commercial market... and maybe help encourage other companies to do the same
in the future.

Thanks again for the info!
- Sal

---

From: "Vianney Lecroart" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:11:39 +0100

Hello all,

> stage. Good work, and I hope it keeps it up like this!

Thanks a lot :) We hope to continue in this way!

> this neat stuff!  This would logically be needed for testing and
developing

In a first time, this client will do nothing else than init the nel lib and
perhaps
display a text and a triangle :) be patient!

> of help, and Direct3D performs well on my system. )

Yeah!!! It was in our external todo list. We wrote a list containing all
things that
the free software community could do on nel and the dx driver is on it! :)
You 'only' have to rewrite the 3d layer1 ! ;)
In fact, the 3d driver layer (layer1) isn't really fixed for now so you
should wait the
end this month before write a dx version because the API may change.

> itself isn't distributable, but I had hoped that derivative works were

I'm not able to answer, perhaps our 3d code lead could answer this.

Best regards,

Vianney Lecroart
---

---

From: Dim Segebart <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:36:31 +0100

> homepage: http://ace.planet-d.net

At least we know the name of game itself :))
From Vianney's home page - Ryzom game for Nevrax
www.ryzom.com - very similar to www.transmeta.com in early days (but without
hidden msg )))

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:05:08 +0100

> end this month before write a dx version because the API may change.

Have you put this list online?
It would be nice to get some orders so I could start contributing =)

/David

---

From: Dim Segebart <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:43:16 +0100

> At least we know the name of game itself :))

He he ... :))
I wouldn't insist on revealing  name of the game. I'm respecting
commercial nature of this project. Without it NeL wasn't be born at all
of was not available under GPL
Hope, I didn't destroy you plans too mach ... ))

---

From: Dim Segebart <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:34:09 +0100

Ok, after browsing game projects which mentioned on
http://ace.planet-d.net I come to conclusion
what your new game will be really MASSIVELY multi-user with _very_
detailed world(s) running in your
universe. So, I just thinking about possibility of linking worlds, which
is NeL based, similar to WWW -
for example, when player passing the doors of some building on the
street (or any other type of portal, analog of <a href> in HTML)
he just enter the different world, which running on completely different
hardware. I'm sure, you already have such
portals in you project. But I'm afraid, this feature limited by the
nameSpace of single NeL server, am I right ?
I think what mechanism of linking between different worlds similar to
WWW will be a good starting point for
creating Internet2 (why not ? ;))
What's about starting RFC  for WCP (World Communicating Protocol) ?

---

From: Dan Ellis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:52:01 +0000 (GMT)

> nameSpace of single NeL server, am I right ?

This is something the Afterscape Project will allow. It will be a very
distributed universe that will allow delegation of zones to other servers.

-- 
Dan Ellis <[email-masked]>

---

From: Thierry Mallard <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:20:26 +0100

On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:34:09PM +0100, Dim Segebart wrote:
> [...] So, I just thinking about possibility of linking worlds, which

This is something I though about in the Genesis project (yes I know,
not very original name ;-) a few years ago. The problems we found
were the consistency of the global universe, and the trust we could
have to any server. For example : who managed the characters ? who
can we trust for them ? There can be a time line synchronisation problem
too, although that seemed less important... 

But definitly that could be a good idea to implement now ;-)

	Shaman

-- 
Thierry Mallard              |              
GnuPG key on wwwkeys.pgp.net |
key 0xA3D021CB               |
http://thierry.mallard.com   |

---

From: Vincent Archer <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:27:27 +0100

> too, although that seemed less important... 

In a very different world (and a closed system implementation), it's also
something Bioware's NeverWinterNights wants to achieve. Their model allows
servers (what they call modules, which is in fact a process running a
specific area - but you can have multiples instances concurrently running
on the same CPU) to link to each other.

Of course, their model is simpler: all servers are guaranteed to run the
same software (it autoupdates over the Internet), the character formats are
well defined, and the characters are ultimately stored on a central database
(the NWN Vault) who enforces "plausibility" on the characters (a level 1
cannot get to level 6 and 70,000 XP points in an hour of playtime; a level 3
character cannot have a plate+2, a cloak of displacement and boots of speed,
and so on).

And they do not want to inforce any universe continuity: each server admin
has to do it, by allowing other modules to link to yours or not.
-- 
Vincent Archer                                         Email: [email-masked]

Nevrax France.                              Off on the yellow brick road we go!

---

From: Dim Segebart <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 10:12:02 +0100

What's wrong with this list ?
I didn't receive my last post, which have been posted three days ago ...
(((
And also no posts from other members.

---

From: Vincent Archer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:27:39 +0100

> And also no posts from other members.

That's a not a particularly weird one, because you're not listed as
a member of the list. I've looked at the logs, and didn't find a record
of your subscription confirmation.

Please note that mailman doesn't let "third party subscriptions" for you;
when you subscribe from the on-line form, mailman sends a message to the
subscribed address asking for a confirmation, to avoid the syndrome of
"let's register Mr X to 10,000 lists to flood his mailbox" (and the less
bothersome 'let's put in a wrong and mispelled address'). Until you have
properly replied to that confirmation message (keep the subject, and cut all
the body), you will NOT receive messages from the list.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 23:10:42 +0100

Hi,
Why haven't you said that you have example game data up?!?

When i tried to open the .dsw's VC++ would just say that it was a "Empty 
workspce" with "0 projects".
The reason for this was that all the VC++ files from the CVS are in UNIX
format, i.e. the linefeeds are messed up.
You should proboblay put a notice in the "Install" file about it.

/David

---

From: Vincent Archer <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:56:19 +0100

> Why haven't you said that you have example game data up?!?

We're still trying to finish the complete packaging for the 0.2 version
(i.e. the first running prototype). And finding a machine to run an
"official" server here for those who can't run server and client at home.

The big announce will be made as soon as we've got time to polish that
(and we'll probably open a download area so people without CVS can get
 full packages at key points)

> format, i.e. the linefeeds are messed up.

The CVS tools should "properly" convert text files between unix/dos
linefeed conventions. We're using WinCVS 1.1 here, and the files are
correctly formatted while working on a windows client, and back to LF when
commited.

> You should proboblay put a notice in the "Install" file about it.

We'll put a Caveat there.

Oh, and by the way, happy new millenium all!
-- 
Vincent Archer                                         Email: [email-masked]