Subject: [Nel] Some comments from a new user (builder only for now)

From: [email-masked] (Nevrax)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:14:04 +0100

Hi, and happy new millenium to everyone!
First I'd like to say that I'm gratly impressed by your work!
So please do not take my comments as hard critcisms...

You seem to be building everything from scratch while a quick search
at sourceforge.net for MMORPG seems to suggest that there are plenty
of already available material. You say that you had to work at your own
(impressive) speed and did not want to hijack an existing project...
But you seem to give up quite easly to good part of the GPL, you could have
forked an existing project: the maintainer would hold no grudge against you
as you would not take any of his/her volonteers but instead bring your team
to some work he/she could also benefit.
Even for low-level, everyday use classes, you seem to always invent your
own (callbacks, smart pointers and sockets come to mind).
I understand that your code is (honestly !) of far better quality than the
average available crap (I also find myself to rewrite much of the code that
I'm supposed to used) but there are exceptions (libsigc++ or any stuff from
www.boost.org for exemple). I just hope that nevrax does not lose time because
of a Not Invented Here syndrom...
From the docs online I had even the impression that you wanted to use you own
custom scripting language (for ai I think). What is wrong with Python ?
I even thought that the stackless (especially microthreads) would be nice
for massively numerous agents :-)

By the way, I'm impressed by that amount of work already done, how many of
the mythical month-man have you put in current cvs ?

It is not often that I can build source code so easly on my alpha!
You bug-fixes were really fast... (I mean FAST!)

For your information, on a Debian woody, one should 'apt-get install'
the following packages (might go in a README or INSTALL):
automake
libtool
libstlport-dev
truetype2-dev
bison
flex
libfreetype6-dev
xlibmesa-dev

beta-builder, soon beta testerly yours,
 
Bernard
(typing startx right now to see the beast)

---

From: "sameh chafik Pro" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:38:52 +0100

Hello, what you say is very interesting and I understand question let me
answer to your python question you say

>for massively numerous agents :-)

Python is a very good script language, I used it a lot for many work and i
know it quite well, but if we use a custom scripting language that doesn't
mean that we'll use it exclusively. On the contrary the script will allow a
good opening to use any external script languag and we encourage that. Note
that Nel script is an script for write agent and is an agent ortiented
language we desigined  to lighten the design of agents and game desigin
code.
And it seem to be more heavy to write the Python agent interface instead of
write the custom Nel script, due mainly to the lack of means to write agents
connection in a classical language and secondly the need to rewirte C++ code
for the python interface.

---

From: Olivier Lejade <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:54:54 +0100

Hi and Happy New Year to all NeLers !

Bernard: Thanks for your comments.
It's always nice to hear that kind of stuff. :)

At 09:14 PM 1/3/01 +0100, you wrote:
>any stuff from
>www.boost.org

We've been trying to reach boost.org since we saw your comment in the bug 
tracking system, but it doesn't seem to respond... :(

Also, would you mind configuring your email to display your name instead of 
"Nevrax" ? It's a bit unsetteling...

Thanks !

---

From: "Vianney Lecroart" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 11:25:53 +0100

Hello and thank you for your post.

First of all, we had the problem to know which external copyleft libraries
we could
use in our project. We looked at libraries such as ACE (for sockets),
ClanLib (for
system init), libsock++ (for sockets too), SDL and so on, but the problem
was that these libraries did too much things or not enough. If a library
does only a few things, we can rewrite it very quickly (with, why not,
copy/paste)
because we want the install very easy to do. If the user has to find and
install
10 libraries before starting the NeL compilation, he surely gives up. When
the
library does too much stuff, it often doesn't do it in the same way we want
to do it,
and we can only reuse a few part of the library. And in this case, it's sad
to compile
during 1 hour an external library for only reusing only a few functions. We
prefer copy/pasting
these parts directly in our lib.

> of a Not Invented Here syndrom...

We'll take a look on libsigc++ and boost. we don't reinvent every thing, we
only reuse code
from other libraries but we don't include the entire libraries.

Vianney Lecroart
---
lead programmer / nevrax.com
icq#: 6870415
homepage: http://ace.planet-d.net
www.geek.com: GCS/E d- s+++: a-- C+++$ UL++ P- L+++>+$ E+>- W++ N+ o? K-
w++$ O- M- V- PS- PE? Y PGP t 5? X+ R- tv++ b- DI D+ G e++ h+ r-- y?

---

From: [email-masked] (Bernard Hugueney)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 11:42:22 +0100

Hi,
You really deserve the responsiveness award !

> tracking system, but it doesn't seem to respond... :(
My bad luck :-( It's the first time that it's down so long since I know it.
I'm on their mailing list so I should know soon what is wrong.
(While typing this mail I read

   >The web site should now be available at 64.226.201.52
   >
   >The DNS change to resolve boost.org to that address has been  submitted to
   >Network Solutions. I have no idea how long they will take to process it.
   >
on the mailing list, will teach them not to deal with NS when they could use
GANDI :-) )

their cvs is host at sourceforge http://sourceforge.net/projects/boost/
and they are an e-group www.egroups.com
The very best C++ coders I've ever heard are there.

> "Nevrax" ? It's a bit unsetteling...
Damn, I'll have to modify my nevrax account, sorry for the mistake,
(modifs done)Is that ok now ?

---

From: Olivier Lejade <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 11:58:27 +0100

>(modifs done)Is that ok now ?
Yes, thanks. And thanks for the pointer too !
We'll have a look at it ASAP.

---

From: Olivier Lejade <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:20:42 +0100

From the information gathered on

http://64.226.201.52/more/lib_guide.htm##License

there seems to be licensing incompatibilities between Boost librairies and 
the GPL.

So I'm afraid this is a good reason why we can't use them in NeL, even 
though they appear to be of very good quality. :(

---

From: Olivier Lejade <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 15:35:10 +0100

>there seems to be licensing incompatibilities between Boost librairies and 

And then again, maybe not. :)
We're looking into it...

---

From: [email-masked] (Bernard Hugueney)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 18:54:08 +0100

>there seems to be licensing incompatibilities between Boost librairies and

I think there is a misunderstanding. They exclude GPL and LGPL for
library SUBMITTED. They want more of a BSD kind I think. You could not
submit Nel for Boost acceptance, 
<Quote>
   To avoid the frustration and wasted time of a proposed library being
   rejected, it must meets these requirements:
     * The license must meet the license requirements below. Restricted
       licenses like the GPL and LGPL are not acceptable.
 </Quote>
Note : "proposed library"
No such restriction is imposed on code using a boost library: reading from
their licenses requirement
<Quote>
     * Must grant permission to copy, use and modify the software for any
       use (commercial and non-commercial) for no fee.
</Quote>

You cannot say that you are not allowed to use a library with such a
licence (Note: ANY USE ) !!!

I don't want to force you to use anything from boost, I just would want you
to dismiss it for bad reasons. As a C++ coder, I found it invaluable
(just for fun you migh look at the lambda library at http://lambda.cs.utu.fi/
I never thought it would be possible). Of course their aim to "perfection"
leads them to move slowly at time (network threads are not there yet...), and
their advanced use of C++ clashes with crappy compiler (VC++). But if you
can use it, their stuff really shines. I have not tested their py_cpp
c++ to python wrapper, but I though you might be interested.

Happy coding !
Bernard
(kinda jealous not to code for my living)

---

From: Olivier Lejade <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 19:15:31 +0100

At 06:54 PM 1/4/01 +0100, you wrote:
>library SUBMITTED. They want more of a BSD kind I think.

Yes, this is what I noticed afterwards. :P
Hence my "maybe not" post.
Anyways, thanks for the clarification and now that the license issue is 
cleared, rest assured we'll pay closer attentions to the libs.

>to dismiss it for bad reasons.

Arg, it wasn't my intent !
At first reading I just thought there was licensing compatibilities issues 
that prevented the use of the libs for GPL/LGP programs. My bad: I was 
wrong. But it sure would be nice to incorporate Boost stuff if we can !
Actually, Cyrille (3D Lead) went to school with one of the Boost guys... :)

---

From: Vincent Archer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:39:53 +0100

> submit Nel for Boost acceptance, 

Well, the same problem applies in the reverse. Libraries in Boost are
not covered by a GPL-style license. Which means that they cannot be
lifted verbatim from the Boost collection and incorporated in ours
without a lot of precautions.

Just like someone cannot take a GPL piece of software and turn it into
a BSD-licensed software, one cannot lift a BSD-style software and put it
into a GPL project. The licenses are "orthogonal" in style, and you
cannot decide on your own to alter the license; only the copyright owner
may do so.

The license styles from Boost (the ones I've looked at so far, boost.org
is unresolvable at the moment) would prevent us from incoporating them
in NeL. We *might* be able to use them side-by-side, asking people to get
them (and provide mirrors) and compile them separately, but they cannot
be *part* of NeL.

> licence (Note: ANY USE ) !!!

The GPL is better worded in that regard; it says for no fee exceeding
the cost of support and shipping (meaning I'm am not obliged to *pay* for
*your* copy).

> their advanced use of C++ clashes with crappy compiler (VC++). But if you

Well, we also have to use VC++. The compiler quirks may drive us crazy
with all its "let's not bother the developper with clarity, I'll guess
what he wants to do" philosophy, but there aren't many useful C++
development environments when you're working on a Windows system.

> (kinda jealous not to code for my living)

Many of us code for a living. We just don't code what we'd really love
to code :)

-- 
Vincent Archer                                         Email: [email-masked]

Nevrax France.                              Off on the yellow brick road we go!

---

From: Vincent Archer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:00:26 +0100

> cannot decide on your own to alter the license; only the copyright owner

A little precision on this subject.

I was about immediately bashed on the head for my old-timer attitudes.
The arguments I raise mostly apply to the so-called "original BSD
license", which had relatively strict advertising clauses on it which
are incompatible with GPL. But for some reason, my brain is still locked
in the 10-years-ago mode, and I don't think I'll ever shake it out 'till
retirement home.

The recent BSD licenses let you mix things with GPL. So, we can't
incorporate Boost libraries into NeL, but we can happily get them, and
use them, just like we use FreeType and the like.

---

From: Valignat Cedric <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:43:26 +0100

Hello Bernard,

> It is not often that I can build source code so easly on my alpha!

Nice to ear that :-)

> You bug-fixes were really fast... (I mean FAST!)

My response wasn't that fast ... sorry :-)

> [...]

I updated the NeL's INSTALL file as you suggest it ... thanks.

Cedric.